MistyBlane (orchestral)

    I recently finished this piece.
    I have spent a bunch of time trying to make this as realistic and "unmidi" sounding as I could.  I am still no where near alot of other folks but hopefully I am getting somewhere. 
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10331906
Feel free to be honest, even if it is brutal :)
-Mike

I think you are on the right track to "unmidifi".  Told a nice musical story without mechanical distractions.  Nice work.

Janet - Thank you for the encouragement
Bret - Thank you for listening and following the story hehheh
Matt - I appreciate the honest opinion and feedback.  Sorry about the first 20 seconds and main theme part, I'm glad you stuck with it and found something pleasurable later on.  I am also up in the air about the ending, I believe the chords went from CMaj to CMaj7 which is an odd way to end a musical piece.  Thanks again for the feeback.

No need to be sorry, what you did was great.  Always remember it is your show, and do what you like.  You will never please everyone, and for me that was the hardest thing to get over.  I have a song that when I played for a few people they just didn't like some of what I did on it.  I went ahead and I tried to change it, took their suggestions and I couldn't come back with something I liked.  While I appreciated the feedback I realized maybe that song just wasn't for them and kept my original version.  After I released the song to a wider audience the song in question ended up being several people's favorite (several others voiced displeasure as well for what that's worth). 

It isn't that the first 20 seconds are bad, it just didn't click with me like the rest did.  Just one man's opinion, but don't be sorry

The biggest problem with doing any orchestral vst work is the attack. There is simply no way to convince anyone of a big hall and full orchestra and sitting a considerable distance from them with a note that sounds like it is a foot away from you.  Rolling off the highs is one way to accomplish that, another is to work the articulations available, or simply reduce the midi velocity.

That being said, there are some real convincing parts to this.

Rik - Thank you for the listen and comment

Jamesyoyo- Thanks for the listen and comment.  I mulled over the velocitys feverishly, I am sure there are places that need more work.  I did not play with EQ much, as you and Ron have pointed out some good EQ techniques.  Thank you.

Ron - Thank you for the listen and advice.  I definately could of used reverb more appropriately, but I did not even begin to EQ for depth.  This is a technique I need alot of work on.  Thank you for all the tips!

I think this is fantastic film music. You've done well with the MIDI but you can nearly always tell, Hey, look the composition is good enough to send to some one who may use it and thus record it with an orchestra.

Cian

Vicente - Thank you for the listen and encouragement.  I definately put some work into it, but have more to do.

Cian - Thank you for the listen and glad you liked the composition.  I have 2 full scores which I someday hope to have played by a real orchestra!  I will have to work on their midi mockups a little more in the future.

Sven - Thank you for the compliment.  I am using EastWest libraries in this one.  SymphonicOrchestraGold-Chiors-Goliath-StormDrum2.  Some of the lines I had multiple samples..for example a single horn line:  attack sample, a vibrato sample then either a shake/flutter or crescendo sample to finish it off.  Or sometimes and attack sample then legato samples for following notes.  I also played with velocity and expression (CC11) heavily.  I am still experimenting and trying to find what is appropriate and realistic sounding which is why I appreciate everyones feedback.
    The flute run you mentioned, I agree.  I doubled a staccato sample with a legato sample, your right, it does not sound natural.  Sometimes it works out decently on string runs, the legato sample by itself seems too weak.  Another checkmark on things to improve on.  Thank you for the feedback.

I can tell you (usually) if a guitar is midi but this stuff here sounds very real to me.  From my "unmidi" knowing point of view I couldn't tell you if it was real or memorex.  I believe it is a very nice job and a great composition.

I think that spending $50 on ValahallaRoom reverb would go a long way on getting this to sound better, although there's a distinct limit as to how good GPO (?) is going to sound.   I suggest ValhallaRoom reverb because it's cheap ($50), sounds incredible and it has true stereo-in/stereo out routing.  True stereo is a must for orchestral emulations (none of the included reverbs in Sonar have that capability) otherwise the sound stage sounds one-dimensional no matter what you do.

The basics of orchestral mixing are easy.  First, create submix busses for strings, woodwinds, brass and percussion and make sure that things are panned appropriately using an orchestral seating chart.  This may mean having to use four or more instances of Aria or Kontakt, etc.  There are several variations of orchestral seating charts used by different conductors and composers, so you don't have to follow it religiously.

Use a reverb INSERT (not an aux send) for each submix (4 reverbs total).  Start with the same hall reverb preset for everything.  You'll have to make adjustments for each submix.  The instruments in the back of the hall (percussion) will have the most reverb (50% wet) and least amount of predelay (0 ms).  As you come forward, there's less reverb, but more predelay.  For the brass try 45% wet/10 ms predelay, woodwinds 40% wet/20 ms predelay, strings 35% wet/30 ms predelay.

EQ inserts on the submixes can also enhance the illusion of depth.  The basic thing to remember is that the stuff in the back of the hall is the darkest (maybe a 4-6 dB treble roll-off for percussion) and use progressively less roll-off as you come forward toward the strings (perhaps leaving them untouched).

Here's a link to a short snippet that uses GPO4 using the procedure I described above: http://tinyurl.com/3t68r98

J

    

I'll play the devil here; as a pop-cronie listener I've begged:  Let orchestral composers try writing pop.  This piece is film-pop ... it is wonderful and splendid to my cronie ears. 

I've only written one 'pure-orchestral', so my comments are 2 cents.  Orchestra seems so ridiculously easy for me ... because vocs aren't involved, I, too, can write one in a few hours, hehe! 

(Just EWQL SD2 performance MIDIs (+/-) .... jamming to them with EWQL stuff.)

I love this piece!  It is vibrant, brilliant, robust, and my clear escape into music-land, without any 'cold calculated turn-offs'.  

This is my fav orchestral (of about 10-20) that I've heard in the last 6-12 months.

hey Mike. main thing is you have the tunes! sounds pretty good to me, some killer writing in this, and the sounds gel well! i think i would have liked a bigger ending, it just kinda ends. some nice advice in this thread too!