D from London
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 42
- Joined: 2009/10/06 19:27:36
- Location: London, England
- Status: offline
Why are my vocals distorting when I export my song?
Hi everyone, Any idea why the peaks of my vocal are distorting when I export the song/audio? In Sonar (5) I don't detect any real-time distortion during playback; I have good monitor speakers and have also checked the lead vocal using my monitor headphones but the vocal just doesn't distort druing playback? I've tweaked the compressor by increasing the threshold so that the compressor doesn't compress as much and that doesn't seem to have any effect either. My sliders on the vocal tracks and vocal buses, including the master, aren't peaking either. My writing partner reckons my compressor, the sonitus fx compressor that comes with Sonar 5, and the exporting process are somehow conflicting, could this be the cause of this distortion? If so, why am I not hearing the distortion during playback? It just doesn't make sense. Personally, I suspect it's an export issue but I have no idea how to resolve this or tweak my export settings. Can someone please help? Your help would be greatly appreciated. D from London
|
Beagle
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 50621
- Joined: 2006/03/29 11:03:12
- Location: Fort Worth, TX
- Status: offline
Re:Why are my vocals distorting when I export my song?
2011/04/25 21:20:23
(permalink)
do you have ALL buses and tracks routing out thru the Master bus ONLY? no track or bus should be routed directly to the soundcard EXCEPT the master bus. all signals should go thru the master bus and only the master bus routes directly to the soundcard. that is the #1 answer for summing issues like you're describing.
|
D from London
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 42
- Joined: 2009/10/06 19:27:36
- Location: London, England
- Status: offline
Re:Why are my vocals distorting when I export my song?
2011/04/25 22:18:32
(permalink)
Thank you so much for replying. All the buses are routed to the master but you're right, every track's output is set to the soundcard. Forgive me here but are the sends overriding that? And why the distortion? In an attempt to remedy the problem, I ditched the sonitus fx compressor for the Vintage Channel VC-64 and that seems to working better but not perfectly, once I've changed all the outputs I'll let you know for sure. I added a final mix compressor to the master and it was peaking, I lowered the input gain, was that the right thing to do? Thanks a million for replying; you're very kind. It's 3am here in London, England and I'm blessed to have someone in Texas(?!) helping me out. Thank you. D from London
|
Beagle
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 50621
- Joined: 2006/03/29 11:03:12
- Location: Fort Worth, TX
- Status: offline
Re:Why are my vocals distorting when I export my song?
2011/04/25 22:22:10
(permalink)
NO! sends do not override the output!! output is sent regardless of the sends! that's what makes them "sends." distortion is because you are summing at the soundcard and reaching digital overs. if you go over 0dB in digital then you get digital distortion - it's not like analog where going over 0dB gives you "saturation" - no, anything over 0dB in the digital world makes "digital distortion" and it sounds bad and you can't correct it if you've recorded it that way. glad to help from Texas!
|
D from London
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 42
- Joined: 2009/10/06 19:27:36
- Location: London, England
- Status: offline
Re:Why are my vocals distorting when I export my song?
2011/04/25 22:44:27
(permalink)
Just changed all the outputs and attempted a mix-down. The compressor I added to the master bus needed severe tweaking because the volume of everything increased on changing the outputs! Just listened to the mixdown and it's even worse in terms of distortion but I think it's me not knowing what to tweak on the compressor. Any ideas?
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re:Why are my vocals distorting when I export my song?
2011/04/26 10:55:37
(permalink)
You're on the right track, D. Once you have everything routed to a common bus, turn the trim down on that bus until the peaks are down around -8 to -12db. Then apply the compressor. Shoot for a final output no higher than -1db. -3db is even better. Granted, commercial recordings typically peak at -0.1db, but they have much better gear than you do. Nobody is going to notice if your final output only peaks at -2db, but you'll avoid that distortion. The Sonitus compressor isn't a great choice for a master bus limiter, although it works well in conjunction with a limiter placed after it. One of the things SONAR 5 lacks is a good limiter, so you'll need to go with a third-party solution. My two favorites are FabFilter Pro-L and Ozone, with the latter providing more than just limiting for slightly more money. If you don't want to spend any money, pick up George Yohng's W1 limiter for free; it's basic but very good.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
Beagle
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 50621
- Joined: 2006/03/29 11:03:12
- Location: Fort Worth, TX
- Status: offline
Re:Why are my vocals distorting when I export my song?
2011/04/26 11:03:33
(permalink)
I like the Antress Modern Limiter (free) bit's right about sonitus for the master bus - I do use it there, but only if I put a limiter after it. but it's decent for bass and vocals for a basic compressor on the track or parallel on a bus.
|
D from London
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 42
- Joined: 2009/10/06 19:27:36
- Location: London, England
- Status: offline
Re:Why are my vocals distorting when I export my song?
2011/04/26 11:22:05
(permalink)
Thank you so much for replying. You know what, I think I am on the right track. I purchased Ozone a few days on a recommendation from someone on this forum and my collaborator and I are going to attempt to master the mix (using and tweaking presets with the help of a few youtube tutorials). Regarding my distortion issue, I did actually use the trim to begin with but I remembered someone (from the forum) discouraging me from using the trim and that I needed to tweak the compressor itself. I'm going to go back to using the trim, and I must thank you for detailing the standard dbs for me, I really appreciate that and will save the information for reference. I'm now using the Vintage Channel VC-64 compressor (as opposed to the sonitus) for the vocals, there are more presets and I'm getting a more professional sound. Regarding the master bus, should/can I use Vintage Channel VC-64 on the master bus (there's a great arrangement/placement preset on it) as well as Ozone, or should I just use Ozone? For future reference, when using a compressor and a preset would 'should' I be tweaking? Surely, the 'trim' on the master bus isn't a solution for all compression issues? Thank you for your help. D from London
|
D from London
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 42
- Joined: 2009/10/06 19:27:36
- Location: London, England
- Status: offline
Re:Why are my vocals distorting when I export my song?
2011/04/26 11:25:44
(permalink)
Hi Beagle, thank you too for replying. Re bass and drums and compression. I'm not compressing the drums but should I be? Regarding the bass, I'll use sonitus on its track but is there a particular preset (specification) I should be using? Your advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you too. D from London
|
Beagle
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 50621
- Joined: 2006/03/29 11:03:12
- Location: Fort Worth, TX
- Status: offline
Re:Why are my vocals distorting when I export my song?
2011/04/26 11:48:04
(permalink)
I think most people do compress the drums and bass. there are presets for bass and drums in sonitus, I'd start there and tweak to taste. for your master bus, Ozone is sufficient by itself. I cannot think of a general reason to use ozone and any other compressor/limiter/EQ, or any other basic FX both on the master bus. it has sufficient tools to complete the job by itself. so no, I would not put VC64 AND Ozone on the master bus, just ozone. I'm not sure i understand your question about what preset you should be tweaking for the master bus with regards to the trim. most compressors will have a master bus preset that you can start from, but of course, presets are only a starting point. I don't ever recommend using JUST the preset to set it and forget it. but I don't know what you mean by the trim on the master bus for all compression issues.
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re:Why are my vocals distorting when I export my song?
2011/04/26 20:47:39
(permalink)
For now, don't put anything on the master bus except Ozone. Later, when you've gotten a handle on Ozone, you can try putting another compressor in front of it. But for now just Ozone. Play your song and watch Ozone's INPUT meter, noting peak values going into the plugin. If they go above about -10db for more than a few moments, turn the input level control down until they rarely exceed -10db. Turn the input level down if it hits or even gets near the red, even for a moment. (-10db is a reasonable target for most rock 'n roll, but if it's a delicate ballad, jazz or acoustical music you'll want to be more conservative, perhaps peaking no higher than -14 or even -16db. The difference between this and your "Margin" setting will determine your overall dynamic range.) Select the Loudness Maximizer section and click the Mode button until it reads "Intelligent II". Leave the "Character" slider at the default for now. Don't click the "prevent intersample clipping" box yet. Pull the "Margin" slider down to -2db. Now play back your song while slowly lowering the threshold. You'll hear the song get louder as you do, but don't be seduced into overdoing it. Watch the gain reduction meter and note the largest numbers you see in it. How much gain reduction is OK depends on the song, the genre, and your goals. For my own stuff I keep it below 3db. For more aggressive genres, 6-8db may be fine. Just beware the effect known as "loudness bias", where you think it's sounding better but it's really just getting louder. Note how the small details of your mix, especially transients like cymbal bell hits and tambourines, start to fade away as you lower the threshold.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
D from London
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 42
- Joined: 2009/10/06 19:27:36
- Location: London, England
- Status: offline
Re:Why are my vocals distorting when I export my song?
2011/04/30 21:06:20
(permalink)
Thank you SO MUCH Bitflipper for you guidance. The 'input level control' on Ozone is basically the blue vertical slider, right? The song is currently peaking at -6 on the master slider (pre-Ozone). The genre is acoustic pop, i.e. guitars, piano, bass, string with live drums. I'll use the bus sliders to lower the volume of the instruments and vocals so that when they peak on the master slider the sound doesn't exceed -14db (Pre-Ozone). And when I activate Ozone I'll use the ellusive 'input level control' to ensure the sound does not 3db (or did you intend -3db?). I'll also tweak the Loudness Maximiser section, we're using the CD Mastering preset and the mode is already intellingent II. Did you mean -0.2db re Margin? Or 2.0db? The preset currently has it at -0.3db. If you could answer the above question re settings, I'd be very grateful. Peace and gratitude. D from London
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re:Why are my vocals distorting when I export my song?
2011/04/30 23:20:30
(permalink)
Yes, the input slider is the vertical blue slider on the left side of the meter display. And no, that wasn't a typo - I meant 2 decibels (2.0), not 0.2. The latter number would be more typical for commercial products, but leaving 1 or 2db peak headroom is better advice for us amateurs. Given your musical genre, I'd suggest trying to lower the input level until it's peaking around -10 to -12db. Then start lowering the threshold until you see compression of 2 to 3db. Experiment from there with the threshold and season to taste. Just be careful of volume bias when comparing two different compression intensities.
post edited by bitflipper - 2011/04/30 23:27:39
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|