SeveredVesper
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How do you write something like this.
"A support document evidencing ownership of the copyright"
How do i start the document? Anyone else no more about this types of documents?
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craigb
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Re:How do you write something like this.
2011/05/14 04:37:48
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The "old-school" method used to include mailing a copy to yourself and leaving it unopened. Not sure what is done now - might be time to break down and consult a lawyer...
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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Slugbaby
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Re:How do you write something like this.
2011/05/14 06:32:37
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Anytime your word-count averages 3 syllables per word, it's time to call a lawyer. If' you're looking to copyright your music, look at MasterWriter. They have a feature where you can submit MP3s of your music over the internet and they store and date-stamp it. I was referred to it through this forum, and it seems quite good. Haven't had to use them to contest anything though, so i can't be sure...
post edited by Slugbaby - 2011/05/14 06:34:20
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Guitarhacker
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Re:How do you write something like this.
2011/05/14 08:35:08
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Yep... Don't use the poor mans copyright method of mailing it to yourself. It's not admissible into a court of law. I also have been using MasterWriter for several years now. http://www.masterwriter.com is the website. Click the Blue one. If you are not sure, you can do the free trial (no songuard service in the demo)..... or license it on a monthly basis for $10 or buy it outright (best long term deal) for $200. It includes Songuard which is their secure server method to prove date of creation. If I understand correctly, they allow up to 180 songs per year. I thought is was a subscription service but so far, it continues to work and they have not sent a renewal notice.... I'm into year 3 using it. I like the service since I tend to write lots of stuff that I submit commercially and copyright fees would kill me. In addition, songuard is very fast. You get the receipt email in seconds. Print it and save it. Since the number of tunes you can secure in this manner is so high, it's not a big deal to protect the WIP ideas either if you are collaborating with someone else. Once you submit it, you can not change/update/delete it. AS I get more songs in it, I'd like to see a better way to organize how it displays the songs, but it's still better, faster, more convenient and way cheaper than the LOC copyrights. Even if you only buy MW for the songuard service....protect 5 songs and it's paid for itself at LOC rates. ($45/each) I also love and use the rest of MW when I'm working on lyrics. It has helped me out of a lyrical jam more than one time..... I highly recommend it. edit: one more thing.... the tech support there is really good... a bit slow in returning calls but I have gotten straight through to ask questions or deal with problems a number of times... also, they update the program and the data bases of words and phrases on a regular basis. Some words, in the rhyming dictionary, have upwards of 36 pages of words that rhyme with the one you entered.... 36 pages...!!!! Quite helpful.
post edited by Guitarhacker - 2011/05/14 08:40:24
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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SeveredVesper
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Re:How do you write something like this.
2011/05/14 15:04:14
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Thanks for the master writer thing guys, but for more clarity, here is the case.
I need the above as a requirement for copyright registration here in the Philippine's Intellectual Property Office.
"A support document evidencing ownership of the copyright, the manner of its acquisition if the claimant is not the original author translator, or editor, and where and in what establishment the work was made, performed, printed, or produced, and the date of its completion and publication."
I mean, is there a way where i can manually do this? Or atleast for a lower price than that masterwriter service? Or if the masterwriter does what i need, isn't it an overkill to get that software just to make a "support" document, which is just a requirement for the actual registration?
I have heard the mail-yourself thing, but could that be used as a supporting document in my application?
Thank you guys.
Check out my band's song on YouTube!
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SeveredVesper
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Re:How do you write something like this.
2011/05/14 15:19:12
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Speaking of the Songuard.
It says that if you buy the MasterWriter, you have 1-year subscription to Songuard.
If i register a copyright under songuard, and the my subscription with Songuard expires, will my registration expire too?
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Guitarhacker
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Re:How do you write something like this.
2011/05/14 17:12:48
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I have not had to renew my subscription to songuard.... so far. BUT, if they send me notice I will gladly renew it. It would be far cheaper then the alternative...LOC.
As to your question: Write to Masterwriter support and ask that question...what happens to registered songs if you decide not to renew? They can tell you.
Severed.... when you register with songuard you get an email, acknowledging the song. Print it out. That is the proof.
Here's what you get: this is from on of my more recent registrations.
The following package has been successfully received into Songuard:
Title: Alluring Faces
Version: 1
Audio track: Track_2011-03-30_14-55-05_980
Submitted time: Wed Mar 30 11:57:46 PDT 2011
That info printed on a page along with a simple letter stating that YOU wrote that song should be sufficient for your local copyright office in the Philippines.
BTW: Why do you need a copyright unless YOU are self publishing or putting out a CD? When a publisher signs the song...THEY will get the LOC copyright and pay all the costs to do so. I had a publisher ask me NOT to copyright or register with the PRO, since it made more paperwork for him and took longer too. He told me that he would handle it all and get it registered correctly so I got the performance royalties and writing credits.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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SeveredVesper
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Re:How do you write something like this.
2011/05/14 17:20:25
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Oh, so then MasterWriter really is the way to go then. So in other words, if i use the Songuard, i don't have to register my copyright anymore? Since if i do, it will just double the cost.  The songs were self-published and released. But now a producer/publisher has taken interest in our work, and prompts us that before he signs us in, i should make sure that i register it, just to be safe from any foul-play regarding ownership (i.e. He might steal our work etc.). Should he be the one do so?
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Guitarhacker
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Re:How do you write something like this.
2011/05/14 17:30:33
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Correct. the publisher will do all the paperwork for you. You can even email or call them and ask them that question to assure yourself..... they will not mind. What you must do first, is check out the publisher to be sure they are legit. You have to be willing to trust them in a business contract. If you have second thoughts, decline the deal. A legit publisher will not ask for money from you. So if they ask for any money do not sign... I always send my songs in to Songuard to set a date of creation registration to prove that I wrote the song and registered it before the song was signed to any publishing deal. My belief is that the publisher should be trustworthy to register the songs properly and timely like they say they will. If not, my registration is my ace up the sleeve. I always include the copyright symbol. Many publishers want the proof of copyright to protect THEM as well. That protection thing goes BOTH ways in this business. I do not copyright, but I do use the symbol and I do protect it with Songuard. I believe you need to protect a song when you send it to anyone in a commercial endeavor, and for me Songuard provides that proof that I need. Copyright infringement and outright stealing of songs is extremely rare, and as hard as it is to get a song signed and cut....... no, I don't loose sleep over my songs not being copyrighted. Songuard lets me sleep at night.
post edited by Guitarhacker - 2011/05/14 17:31:41
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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SeveredVesper
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Re:How do you write something like this.
2011/05/14 17:38:40
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If you are a theist, may God bless you. That removed the thorn up my arse. Now I know.
Lastly, is there any other service like songuard that can time stamp something without having it bundled with another program that you know of? I'm gonna have to beg my aunt now for her credit card.
Check out my band's song on YouTube!
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Guitarhacker
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Re:How do you write something like this.
2011/05/14 17:51:58
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I have heard that there are other song protection services on the net. Google should help you find them. Just be sure they have been around a while and are strong enough to be there in the years ahead. Pretty useless if you sign up to save a few bucks and in a year they go out of business. I know Master writer has been around for some time, and they are promoted by TAXI and BMI as well. I feel secure in knowing they will be around for the long run..... at least I hope so. 
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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SeveredVesper
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Re:How do you write something like this.
2011/05/14 18:03:37
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Okay, thank you once again!
I don't suppose the printed time-stamp document needs to be notarized by a lawyer anymore right?
Thanks again for your generosity and patience with me!
Check out my band's song on YouTube!
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Guitarhacker
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Re:How do you write something like this.
2011/05/14 21:27:29
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no.... What you might want to do is sign your required letter in front of a notary. That makes it a legal document.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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SeveredVesper
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Re:How do you write something like this.
2011/05/15 06:29:06
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What if i do the poor man's time stamping in a digital way, like mailing myself an attachment?
I'm sure that's more respectable than the postage version, since the digital version can't be cheated, since i'm using a trusted mail provider. (Google)
Check out my band's song on YouTube!
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SeveredVesper
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Re:How do you write something like this.
2011/05/15 06:32:30
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Addition: As much as i want to just follow your advice which looks safe, i'm also looking for cheaper/free alternatives, so please excuse me for my lack of total resolve in relation to my shallow pocket.
Check out my band's song on YouTube!
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57Gregy
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Re:How do you write something like this.
2011/05/15 11:39:24
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Did you 'release' the songs on the internet?
Maybe print out something from your song-hosting site showing the date you uploaded it?
Plus, in Cakewalk programs, there is an Information page associated with each project. If you filled that out with the date, that can show when you created the project. But that can be changed. I don't know if your current DAW program does that, though.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:How do you write something like this.
2011/05/15 14:37:53
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I believe the computer you export the file from also creates a date of origin that gets stamped on the file.... as do the upload servers on the major sites.
That has, to my knowledge, never been tested for integrity in a court of law to try to prove copyright or date of creation.
The question I would ask to you is: What are your songs worth to you? Are they worth trying to "protect" them for free, or are they worth a few dollars to have a secure third party verify them for you?
The digital "watermark" is what the court will look for. The original date stamp. On a computer, if you reset the clock you can fake all sorts of things, and the "soundclick" sites, although they do have records of when things are uploaded, that is NOT their main job.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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SeveredVesper
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Re:How do you write something like this.
2011/05/15 15:50:30
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Update: I have found a e-time-stamping service just for $0.40 a stamp, so that's where i'm going for at the moment. It looks trustworthy. @Greg Yeah, i know about DAW time-stamps, but they can be tampered. Just open my song as a new wave file and save it again and it's gone. @GuitarHacker I guess having a stamp from a stamping source is still better than getting the time evidences from sites that don't specialize in that. And yes, i get you about is it worth it to secure. As much as i'd love to use the best service, i just don't have enough money for 8 songs using that MasterWriter. But as for the stamping service i found, i could easily afford it. Thank you again.
Check out my band's song on YouTube!
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Guitarhacker
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Re:How do you write something like this.
2011/05/15 17:25:58
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That's good to know... glad you found an affordable solution.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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