Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug?

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rainmaker1011
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2011/05/14 17:45:26 (permalink)

Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug?

Hi,

I do not know whether this is intended behavior or not but it looks weird to me....

I have a MIDI clip, starting from 3:01:000 to 5:01:000. I need to change the size, crop the clip so I click the left edge and drag to the right so the clip now starts from 4:01:000. Now I want to move the clip back to 3:01:000. I can do it easily by dragging it to the time. 

BUT

When I put 3:01:000 as a Start time in the clip properties in the Inspector and hit Enter, the clip moves to 2:02:009 !!!. Why???!!!

I have to Apply trimming in order to being able to move the clip into desired position BUT I do not want to Apply trimming!

Is this normal???

Another weird behavior, and this must be a bug:

I record a MIDI clip while the first note I record at 01:03:480. When I stop recording, the recorded clip starts from 01:02:480, which is OK. But, then I extend the clip to the left, lets say to 01:2:000 and want to move the whole clip to 01:01:000. Guess what happens???

The clip moves to the left in a way, that the first note is at time 01:01:000 BUT the remaining left part of the clip is somewhere -00:00:000, simply out of the window.

I must say, I am upset.

See the video for more details. In the video, from time 2:28 to the end, I am restarting Sonar and showing the same issue. 

http://www.screencast.com...4055-890c-1b80c5633001

Please check this behavior on your system to find out whether it is a BUG or solely my problem.

Thanks

  EDIT: This does not apply to audio clips 
post edited by rainmaker1011 - 2011/05/14 17:50:04

Best Regards,  
Marek

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    Saintom
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2011/05/14 17:52:25 (permalink)
    Try Turning off Snap

    Tom



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    rainmaker1011
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2011/05/14 17:55:16 (permalink)
    Saintom


    Try Turning off Snap

    Tom

    Snap has no influence on this, because once I want the clip to start at 02:01:000 and I enter this to the Start time field, it must go there, regardless of the Snap settings.

    Best Regards,  
    Marek

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    Stone House Studios
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2011/05/14 19:19:41 (permalink)
    What happens if you bounce to clip first, after adjusting the size of the clip? 
    I suspect the behavior has something to do with what point the clip actually begins, which I think is not at the trimmed or stretched part, but at the original beginning.  Maybe?

    Brian

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    rbowser
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2011/05/15 01:22:54 (permalink)
    I confess not totally following what you're doing, and part of that might be that I've never typed in in the start time field - I just grab a clip and move it to where I want, often with the grid off.  In the video I see you dragging the clip out longer at the top for some reason - why are you doing that?  That's just adding blank time to your clip--.

    RB

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    Saintom
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2011/05/15 03:48:05 (permalink)
    rbowser


    I confess not totally following what you're doing, and part of that might be that I've never typed in in the start time field - I just grab a clip and move it to where I want, often with the grid off.  In the video I see you dragging the clip out longer at the top for some reason - why are you doing that?  That's just adding blank time to your clip--.

    RB


    This is why I suggested turning off snap settings, move the clip where you want it and for get about it ;)

    Tom



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    Skyline_UK
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2011/05/15 04:40:41 (permalink)
    In your video the clip has a yellow padlock on it.  Doesn't that mean its position is locked?  Perhaps that's something to do with it.
     
    PS: I've been having problems with wild, what seems like random, values being put in clips' start times whenever I've put exact values into the clip properties Start field.  I don't know if this is the same problem.  See my post:
    http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2301034
     
    John
    post edited by Skyline_UK - 2011/05/15 04:45:50

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    rainmaker1011
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2011/05/15 05:58:05 (permalink)
    Hi John, 

      the problem you described in your post is exactly the same as mine. In my video, the clip I am moving with is not position-locked (the yellow clip) 

    Starting from time 1:10 in the video, I changed the clip size so only the last part of the clip remains. Then I want to move the clip to an exact time by typing in Start point value. I know I can do the same by dragging it, but the Start point field is in Inspector to serve this function as well, and if it does not work then it should be fixed. In the video you can see where the clip moves then.

    John, are you still having the problem? I have found out that it is related only to MIDI clips that do not have the original length. Then by entering Start point value, the clip moves in a way, that not the left edge of the resized clip gets at the Start time as it should be and as it works in Sonar 8.5 (just checked this), but the original left edge of the clip gets at the Start time. 

    Try it: - pick any MIDI clip you have in your project, Apply trimming. Resize it, dragging the left edger either to the left or right, and now enter any Start point value of the clip in Inspector. Where the clip get moved? Now drag the left edge back to its original point and you will see, that the original left edge of the clip is at the time of Start point value. Not the edge of the resized clip.

    After you reported this to CW, what is the status? I filed the problem report yesterday as well...

    See the new vid showing this:

    http://www.screencast.com...4dbd-a2a5-10abe2078bb5


    post edited by rainmaker1011 - 2011/05/15 06:01:20

    Best Regards,  
    Marek

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    rainmaker1011
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2011/05/15 06:07:07 (permalink)
    rbowser


    I confess not totally following what you're doing, and part of that might be that I've never typed in in the start time field - I just grab a clip and move it to where I want, often with the grid off.  In the video I see you dragging the clip out longer at the top for some reason - why are you doing that?  That's just adding blank time to your clip--.

    RB

    Hi Randy,

    I was dragging the clip out longer just to illustrate the problem. You can try it by dragging it shorter, the outcome will be the same. I use Start time filed when I want to move a clip to an exact time, lets say 52:04:268  because of some reason. And this way is the quickest and the most precise. But, not working in X1b.  

    Best Regards,  
    Marek

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    rainmaker1011
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2011/05/15 10:08:11 (permalink)
    Has anyone tried to reproduce this? I think this function is one of the main DAW functions, functions of a MIDI sequencer. And it seems it is broken...

    Brandon? Seth? Could you chime in  your free time to discuss this?

    Best Regards,  
    Marek

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    brundlefly
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2011/05/15 12:48:49 (permalink)
    pick any MIDI clip you have in your project, Apply trimming. Resize it, dragging the left edger either to the left or right, and now enter any Start point value of the clip in Inspector. Where the clip get moved? Now drag the left edge back to its original point and you will see, that the original left edge of the clip is at the time of Start point value. Not the edge of the resized clip.



    While I have to agree this is incorrect behavior based on the way 8.5.3 worked. I think it's asking for trouble to have clip boundaries not correspond to actual MIDI event start and end times, except when using Groove clips, which are designed to work this way (and still do in X1).


    If you want regular MIDI clips to maintain their relationship of MIDI to measure and beat boundaries, just use Move By instead of Move To when dragging, and don't touch the beat/tick values when manually editing the start times in the Inspector.


    Or you can convert them to groove clips after setting the boundaries where you want them.
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    rainmaker1011
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2011/05/15 13:19:44 (permalink)
    Thanks for the tip Brundlefly, but it is still a workaround. I do not like workarounds. Workarounds are for software that are free... :)

    I hope CW will fix this.

    Why do you think MIDI clip boundaries should correspond to actual MIDI event start and end times? The problem here is, that Sonar recognizes the wrong boundary - the one which is not visible because the clip has been resized, which means it is a new clip, right? :)

    Another workaround to this is to Apply trimming to the resized clip or Bounce it to a clip. But, you know, see my first sentence :).

    Best Regards,  
    Marek

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    rbowser
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2011/05/15 13:52:18 (permalink)
    rainmaker1011


    rbowser


    I confess not totally following what you're doing, and part of that might be that I've never typed in in the start time field - I just grab a clip and move it to where I want, often with the grid off.  In the video I see you dragging the clip out longer at the top for some reason - why are you doing that?  That's just adding blank time to your clip--.

    RB

    Hi Randy,

    I was dragging the clip out longer just to illustrate the problem. You can try it by dragging it shorter, the outcome will be the same. I use Start time filed when I want to move a clip to an exact time, lets say 52:04:268  because of some reason. And this way is the quickest and the most precise. But, not working in X1b.  


    Hi, Marek - Thanks for the reply.  Interesting thread you have going - it's about something I have literally never thought about or dealt with. 

    Hmmm. - Everyone has their preferred ways of working, so even though this sounds argumentative, I just wanted to say that I've done many very complex MIDI projects and have never done anything but grab and move clips when needed.  It's extremely fast and easy, I can't imagine how it would be more efficient to stop and deal with typing numbers--But it's hard to imagine working in a way we haven't, so I just don't know what I'm missing. 

    But I've also never had problems getting clips to be exactly where I want them.  I work primarily in the PRV, with the current track in the TV visible above it.  I can drag clips as needed up there, doing the deeper editing in PRV where I can also easily see if a clip is sitting where it needs to.

    And so on.  - I can't tell for sure if what you're talking about is a glitch or not.  It's all perplexing to me.  Hope you get a method going that works for you, and that you communicate with Cakewalk about what you're seeing - maybe they can either help explain, or acknowledge a bug.

    Randy B.

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    Stone House Studios
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2011/05/15 14:14:34 (permalink)
    The problem here is, that Sonar recognizes the wrong boundary - the one which is not visible because the clip has been resized, which means it is a new clip, right? :)

     
    I guess the argument could be that since you have the ability to shrink and grow clips at leasure, there must be a stable starting and ending point that doesn't reflect changes that can be made on the fly.  Bouncing isn't a work around, it just establishes (cements) the boundaries.
     
    Of course, this is only my supposition!
     
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    HumbleNoise
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2011/05/15 15:41:31 (permalink)
    Here's something I didn't know about sliding clips in Sonar. May or may not be relevant to the OP but hope it helps in some way.

    http://www.youtube.com/wa...vA&feature=related

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    Grem
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2011/05/15 16:01:48 (permalink)
    This was talked about alead in great length. I can't remember who started the thread, or even the out come. But it has something to do with Sonar's ability to remember where a clip was. Reason being for undo type of stuff. But you can *Apply Trimming" and it will work the way you want. But it's not a work around. That's the way it's designed.

    I wish I could remember the thread so I could point you to it. But I don't think this is a bug.

    Grem

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    Skyline_UK
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2011/05/15 16:30:56 (permalink)
    All this debate when the answer is simple (if only CW would learn) - JUST LEAVE IT WORKING LIKE IT USED TO IN 8.5.3!  (You used to be able to right click, bring up the clip properties and type in the start value you desire.)
    I know eggs had to be broken to make the omelette that is Sonar X1 but I've come to the conclusion that a whole truckload was sacrificed... 

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    brundlefly
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2011/05/16 11:23:35 (permalink)
    rainmaker1011
    Why do you think MIDI clip boundaries should correspond to actual MIDI event start and end times?

    'cause I'm old-school.
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    obori
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2012/05/15 05:49:44 (permalink)
      Got the same Problem in a different way. I want to record Midi, that always fits into the loop-borders. Means if the Loop has 4 bars from start point 1.0.0 to 5.0.0, I want my clip to be the same lenght, even if I only record one single note. The Point of it is, that this seems to me the easiest way to creat grooveclips. I dont want to stretch or move a clip. I only want to record the clip, transfer it to a grooveclip and copy it in an easy way.
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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2012/05/15 06:16:51 (permalink)
    Well yours is easy to solve - just set your punch in/out points to correspond to your loop points.

    Nothing outside of that will be recorded.

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    Savagery
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2012/05/15 15:01:15 (permalink)
    The fact that it cut off the "R" in "Record" (the clip name) is pretty damning.... everything in this video looks like a bug to me. The way I see it, if you trim a clip, MIDI or Audio, the beginning and end should reference what's seen on the screen. If I want only the last 3 notes of a MIDI performance, I should be able to trim the clip to the last 3 notes and go on with my life, without bouncing; that's the point of non-destructive slip editing, not to bounce and lose data.
     
    I bet very few people actually set the start time manually like you do, so there's a chance you're the first one to find this bug.
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    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2012/05/15 15:56:41 (permalink)
    Bristol_Jonesey


    Well yours is easy to solve - just set your punch in/out points to correspond to your loop points.

    Nothing outside of that will be recorded.


    That's not quite what Obori wants. He wants the clip to fill the loop area even if he only plays a few notes.
    However, SONAR cuts the MIDI-clip where the last MIDI-note ends. So, if you Groove Clip it, the copies will not be created according to the loop length, but the length of actually played notes.

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    soens
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2012/05/15 21:04:06 (permalink)
    rainmaker1011



    ...
     
    Please check this behavior on your system to find out whether it is a BUG or solely my problem.

    Thanks

    EDIT: This does not apply to audio clips 

    I'm not sure if this was alread said but it all looks like normal behavior to me...
     
    1st scenario -
     
    Sonar sees the clip in it's entirety. When you slip either end into the clip, it's only hiding the notes. Sonar still sees them.
    So to move it using the inspector you need to "bounce" it first which deletes the covered notes.
     
    2nd scenario -
     
    When you slip either end outfrom the clip, Sonar sees this as dead space. So to move it using the inspector you need to "bounce" it first which deletes the dead space. 
      
    If for some reason you need that space, calculate how big it is and add it to you Inspector entry so the 1st note will be where you want it.
     
    Steve
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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2012/05/16 04:02:10 (permalink)
    Kalle Rantaaho


    Bristol_Jonesey


    Well yours is easy to solve - just set your punch in/out points to correspond to your loop points.

    Nothing outside of that will be recorded.


    That's not quite what Obori wants. He wants the clip to fill the loop area even if he only plays a few notes.
    However, SONAR cuts the MIDI-clip where the last MIDI-note ends. So, if you Groove Clip it, the copies will not be created according to the loop length, but the length of actually played notes.


    Yes, I can see that now.

    Maybe he needs to look at Input Quantize, short of that, I don't know of a way to fill out notes to a predetermined length, other than drawing in the PRV of course.

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    obori
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2012/05/16 06:20:00 (permalink)
      Yes Kalle, pls tell me that you have an answer for me, plz - i m getting mad with this program by now. I dont want to stretch every clip manually. Any ideas? Plz help or I have to run with my head to wall soon!
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    rainmaker1011
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2012/05/16 13:38:31 (permalink)
    Hi,

    CW has confirmed this as bug. So I believe one day it will be implemented into an update.

    In Sonar 8.5 it worked as expected.
    Snap is not looking at "hidden" notes but at the actual clip size (slipped or not) so why not the clip Start time? :) 

    Best Regards,  
    Marek

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    #26
    soens
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2012/05/17 03:42:34 (permalink)
    Not sure what you mean by "actual clip size" but I would translate that as including the hidden notes.
     
    I will try it in 8.3 and see if it behaves differently.
     
    Steve
    #27
    rainmaker1011
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2012/05/26 08:54:59 (permalink)
    By actual clip size I mean the clip you see. Excluding hidden notes. What You See Is What You get behavior :) :)

    Best Regards,  
    Marek

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    #28
    metamo
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2013/01/10 12:39:34 (permalink)
    I'm having the same disappointment after upgrading from Sonar 6, however the Apply Trimming trick seems to have worked. 

    If anyone's interested, the reason for typing in a start time as opposed to dragging would be if the first note in a clip occurs on at an "unusual" number of ticks such as "528" which is the situation I'm in at the moment. 
    #29
    Grem
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    Re:Weird problem when moving MIDI clip - bug? 2013/01/12 12:39:14 (permalink)
    Yes to keep the feel and the flow going that first note in the clip needs to stay there. Some people forget this working with "standard" or generic clips.

    Grem

    Michael
     
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    #30
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