SilkTone
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Crazy idea, or could this work...?
Who hasn't opened an old Sonar song only to find there are missing plugins? You might no longer have those plugins installed. Or your new system doesn't have that plugin installed and you can no longer download it because the developer went out of business, or the new version isn't compatible with the old song. Whatever the reason, you no longer have the plugin and now you have a problem. Since many plugins are portable, why not have an option to archive a song, including all of its plugins? Sonar would then save all those plugin DLLs into the project bundle so that years later when you unarchive it, it restores the plugins to some temp location and then re-scans them. Of course there could be problems, not the least which are: - Licensing and registration issues. Not sure plugin developers would allow something like that. The possibility exists that you can now give the song archive to someone else who then suddenly have plugins they did not pay for. Plugins that need to be registered/activated could revert to their trial state.
- Plugins often contain extra data stored in the registry or somewhere else. That will not be copied of course so will probably render the plugin unusable.
- Won't work with plugins that have more advanced installers that installs additional files. This includes samplers etc.
But even so, many plugins can be revived from the dead if it doesn't have any of those restrictions and consists of a single DLL. Maybe there should be some way for the plugin to have an "Archive Allowed" flag that indicates that the plugin can safely and legally be archived and then restored later. Most simple free plugins would work in this scenario. Just a thought...
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thebiglongy
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Re: Crazy idea, or could this work...?
2014/02/08 16:23:05
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Or it could store it's own wrapped version with only the linked presets/files/samples and such so that you could at least replay anything required or remix the project at a later date.
I have hit this problem many times, I've yet to be able to resolve the issue with some of my projects sadly. Searching the CWP for the presets on the synths is the one way i've been told of to find them, but isn't always possible it seems.
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Vastman
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Re: Crazy idea, or could this work...?
2014/02/08 16:41:40
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I think the easiest/direct way to save against this possibility is to freeze/convert to audio all tracks...although it does lock u in...
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Anderton
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Re: Crazy idea, or could this work...?
2014/02/08 17:46:38
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Vastman ...although it does lock u in...
Just like tape I've gotten into archiving to audio when a project is finished for two reasons. First, you avoid the "doesn't load later" problem. Second, I want to psychologically be able to say "That song's finished" and move on, not second-guess myself about "should I have used a different amp sim tone on the guitar?" If all else fails, I figure I cut the track once before, I can probably cut it again.
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thebiglongy
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Re: Crazy idea, or could this work...?
2014/02/09 09:02:15
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Anderton
Vastman ...although it does lock u in...
Just like tape  I've gotten into archiving to audio when a project is finished for two reasons. First, you avoid the "doesn't load later" problem. Second, I want to psychologically be able to say "That song's finished" and move on, not second-guess myself about "should I have used a different amp sim tone on the guitar?" If all else fails, I figure I cut the track once before, I can probably cut it again.
Yup, this is good but if you have a song you have forgotten about or have only started working on a few small sections utilising vst's, it would be nice to be able to go back and avoid the issue of "plugin not found". I've done it in the past when having written a few tracks and due to time constraints and work, was unable to crack on and finish them. Then having some issues with the hard drive I had done a clean install on a new one, only to find after installing all my plugins and updates, that the plugin could no longer be found, even though it was installed and worked perfectly.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Crazy idea, or could this work...?
2014/02/09 10:00:13
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I move on - things more than 6 months past completion are archived off the hard drive, and if I ever needed to restore something from way back when and it had missing plugins, I would not lose a moment of sleep over it. It's not really different than it used to be with analog effects and hardware synths, in the days of tape. If gear was no longer available there was nothing you could do about it, and the entire industry survived in that mode for quite a long time. Bob Bone
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Mosvalve
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Re: Crazy idea, or could this work...?
2014/02/09 10:28:24
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Other than plugins included in Sonar, I think Cake should just keep the plugins from previous versions in the newer versions instead of replacing them with newer plugins. It's a real pain to have to install the plugins from earlier versions if it's even possible for some versions.
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SilkTone
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Re: Crazy idea, or could this work...?
2014/02/09 13:17:34
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I guess one way to get close to the same behavior is to manually archive your plugin folders from time to time and keep it around. That way at least if you do want to go back to an old song, chances are you have the missing plugins in one of your archives and can restore them to a temp location and do a rescan. I do keep incremental backups of my DAW system so I could retrieve the plugins I need that way I guess, but it would be nice to have some sort of automated way to manage it via Sonar. BTW the reason I ran into this problem was because I was going through some old Sonar project files and found an mp3 of a song I was experimenting with about 8 years ago. I thought it would be great to continue working on it but almost all the plugins are now missing.
post edited by SilkTone - 2014/02/09 13:29:10
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thebiglongy
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Re: Crazy idea, or could this work...?
2014/02/09 13:33:57
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One thing I think people forget is that this isn't "Yesterday" this is "Today" lol. It's nice to reminisce back to the times when you had to just suck it up or search for miles around to find the effects units/mics/synths or whatever if you wanted to rework a project as faithfully (sounds wise) to the original as possible, but with the ability to add more or tweak it up. But this is today, where we should be able to recall pretty much anything, we shouldn't be hitting stumbling blocks like "plugin not found" just because you've updated your system or the plugins have become outdated and now have superseding versions which sonar won't pick up on....hell, if it did pick up on it, then I'd bet there would be no need for this or many of the other threads relating to that pain in the backside of a message.
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John
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Re: Crazy idea, or could this work...?
2014/02/09 15:14:19
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Anyone heard of Documentation? Sonar has always had a means to keep notes. Nothing is stopping one from keeping settings and FX type as notes. This can not be left behind and will allow one to deal with this issue. But you have to take notes.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Crazy idea, or could this work...?
2014/02/09 20:25:11
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The OP's ideas are not bad at all, but I would rather they not bother. Every time I open an old project and get the dreaded missing plugin message, it is a sign to me that I need to stop tinkering around with projects so long that multiple versions of Sonar make the plugin obsolete. In other words, I am dinking around for years and it will never be "done". I now make a habit of freezing tracks so that on the offbeat chance that i want to revisit something i recorded years ago, I have one less issue to deal with.
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BJN
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Re: Crazy idea, or could this work...?
2014/02/10 10:30:29
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This has happened to me plenty too but what i find is that the plugins missing are your usual bread n butter plugins like EQ , verbs delays,comps etc and the mix could be well remixed. Also the plugins I like, I keep up with their re installs. I don't often reload old pjt to see if there is something there I 've wasted as am usually creating or re creating new material constantly but it is fun to go back over stuff you might not have bothered to mixdown. For clients the rendering all to audio is a good way to get back what you made for someone if needed.
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Guitarhacker
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Re: Crazy idea, or could this work...?
2014/02/10 11:14:11
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What I find is that the older plugs often sounded bad compared to what is available now. For example, an old synth patch based piano plug in, no longer in the computer.... hey, I'll load up a new plug which uses sampled piano sounds..... waaa laaa, now the song parts sound so much better..... hey no problem for me, let the past remain part of the past. Normally when I listen to the old stuff, it's more of a case of, wow... I could make this sound so much better now with all I have learned since.... but the only question is, do I actually think the song is good enough to spend all the time that would be required to record it all again from scratch....? and the answer to that is normally "no", as my writing chops have also improved to the point where I don't wish to spend/waste the time on that old song.
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stevec
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Re: Crazy idea, or could this work...?
2014/02/10 15:41:16
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I've actually gone through the trouble of reviewing older projects on my previous XP machine just to make a list of what I no longer have installed. Unfortunately a good portion of those include soundfont players where the actual soundfont used isn't listed anywhere. And my oldest projects used all external gear. Unfortunately I haven't been and still am not a great note taker (hey, I'm sure I'll remember this!) so it makes for interesting times. Funny though, after going through multiple SONAR version's worth of projects, I haven't done a single thing with them. Go figure.
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Kev999
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Re: Crazy idea, or could this work...?
2014/02/10 20:25:04
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I can live with missing effects in old projects, but missing softsynths is more serious. My biggest headache here has been due to having used the now-defunct DXi versions of several different softsynths, particularly Rapture, Battery 3 and SampleTank. I would be happy if there was a way of replacing a missing DXi softsynth with the equivalent VSTi version without losing the softsynth's program settings.
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Splat
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Re: Crazy idea, or could this work...?
2014/02/10 20:53:36
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thebiglongy One thing I think people forget is that this isn't "Yesterday" this is "Today" lol. It's nice to reminisce back to the times when you had to just suck it up or search for miles around to find the effects units/mics/synths or whatever if you wanted to rework a project as faithfully (sounds wise) to the original as possible, but with the ability to add more or tweak it up. But this is today, where we should be able to recall pretty much anything, we shouldn't be hitting stumbling blocks like "plugin not found" just because you've updated your system or the plugins have become outdated and now have superseding versions which sonar won't pick up on....hell, if it did pick up on it, then I'd bet there would be no need for this or many of the other threads relating to that pain in the backside of a message.
Sorry most software works this way, backwards compatibility is often prone with errors simply because it's a nightmare to test and maintain, and sometimes you just have to make a break away from the past. Besides with VST's for instance they are programmed by many developers who do things in different ways (and resources are not unlimited), who work for different organisations. When we have utopia this may be achievable but right now we are living in the beginnings of the virtual synth, complete DAW and effects age, eventually the talent button will be made so we should all think ourselves lucky right now.... Although I'm pretty pissed I haven't got a hover car yet.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Crazy idea, or could this work...?
2014/02/10 21:15:24
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I too don't mind missing plugs or synths, I always have moved on to something better. I guess this is totally dependent on your music style however. Mine is traditional so I need not worry about some space fart analog synth emulation with just the right tweaks to the envelope filters... So I can see your point in that regaurd.. But I also agree with what a few have said about leaving too many half finished projects around, For me, if I didn't finish it, there was a good reason,,, like it was turning into a turkey anyhow. And Alex, I too am miffed that we don't yet have a hover car or better yet hover running shoes....what's with that?
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