Noisy laptop power lead.

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curb
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2011/05/22 09:23:02 (permalink)

Noisy laptop power lead.

Afternoon all,
I'm recording our rehearsals with an acer laptop, whenever the power lead is plugged in there is an awful hum on the PA.
I've changed the power supply and the problem is still there, unfortunately with Acer you have to use their branded lead otherwise the laptop rejects it, and my battery is pretty poor, it only gives me about 1/2 an hour when recording, I don't want the laptop to shut down half way through a recording.
 
Any suggestions (apart from slinging it out the window)?

Acer Aspire Windows XP, Tascam 1800, Cakewalk A-500 Pro, Yamaha DGX-650, Roland TD3 V-drums, Sonar 8, Reason 3
http://www.myspace.com/voidmusicuk
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#1

19 Replies Related Threads

    bbent91745
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/22 13:26:35 (permalink)
    curb,

    It sounds like you have a 'ground loop'. To help you solve it, we need to know more about your setup. What are you using for capturing the audio? What is plugged into it and the laptop? The simplest thing you can do quickly is to make sure that the laptop and everything connected to it is powered from the same outlet (and ground). Check your cables. Do you have the hum problem when everything is unplugged from the laptop except for the connection to the PA? Try to isolate the problem.

    The solution may well include one or more powerstrips (to connect more of your equipment to the same ground), power isolation transformers and/or a 'Direct Inject' box to provide signal level isolation. The type and quality of the cables your are using is also very important.

    Good luck.

    Regards,
    bbent 

    HW: GA-X58A-UD3R, i7-930, 6GB & 2ea WD2002FAEX 2TB, 1ea WD1001FALS 1TB, UA1000, FP-7F, Yamaha 2.1 HS80M/HS10W
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    #2
    curb
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/22 14:04:33 (permalink)
    I'm using a Tascam 1800, with my drum kit mic'ed into it via 7 channels, DI box for the bass, 2 guitars off the line out of the amps, 1 vocal mic and a stereo pair for keyboards all into seperate channels.
    The hum I get is there when no channels are connected, and is also present when I use my Mackie Link USB interface with 2 channels.
    The monitor output of the interface is plugged into two channels of the Yamaha Pa mixer, but if this is not connected the hum is still there.
    When I unplug the power lead to the laptop the hum dissappears.

    Acer Aspire Windows XP, Tascam 1800, Cakewalk A-500 Pro, Yamaha DGX-650, Roland TD3 V-drums, Sonar 8, Reason 3
    http://www.myspace.com/voidmusicuk
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    #3
    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/22 18:09:05 (permalink)
    Where is the laptop power supply in relation to everything. It might be that the actual laptop power supply is radiating the hum and it is just getting into things. Try moving the laptop power supply away from everything as much as you can and see what happens.

    Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
     
    Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
    #4
    curb
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/22 18:50:04 (permalink)
    It's normally about 10' away from the mixer, on a seperate wall socket over behind my drums with a long usb extension to the Tascam interface.

    Acer Aspire Windows XP, Tascam 1800, Cakewalk A-500 Pro, Yamaha DGX-650, Roland TD3 V-drums, Sonar 8, Reason 3
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    #5
    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/22 19:34:08 (permalink)
    Hi curb at least we have got that option out of the way and believe me I have had some serious hum issues due to those silly external power supplies but sounds like yours is not doing that.

    We need to look at how you are connecting this interface to the PA mixer. Sounds like it is earth hum related now. Are the PA mixer inputs balanced and are they TRS or cannon inputs?

    Are the outputs on your Tascam balanced. Specs seem vague about that.

    You say the hum is present even when the Tascam is not connected to the PA! Is it connected to anything else. I assume USB to the computer is the only connection going on is that right? Have you tried moving the laptop itself around to see if it is inducing hum in anything.

    There is a way to connect the Tascam to the PA mixer (providing the inputs are balanced) that does not involve any earth connection at the PA mixer end. I can explain that later once we determine what is causing the hum.

    Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
     
    Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
    #6
    daveny5
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/22 21:38:21 (permalink)
    Get an outlet tester at Home Depot. Its possible that the outlet you are using is not wired properly. They cost about $5 and are well worth having. I've had one for over 30 years and I use it whenever I need to check a power outlet. 

    You're not using an external display are you (like an old CRT display). Those will create hums in the guitar pickups. 

    Dave
    Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F
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    #7
    mark s
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/22 22:58:29 (permalink)
    AC polarization should not cause a problem through a transformer.  Smells more like ground loop to me.
    #8
    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/23 01:45:25 (permalink)
    The thing is Mark is that even with no audio connected between his interface and the PA he is still getting the hum. We need to see if moving the laptop around helps. Sounds like it could be a hum noise induction thing from something if no audio is connected between them.

    Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
     
    Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
    #9
    curb
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/23 10:41:46 (permalink)
    I might have misled you there saying there is still hum when the audio isn't connected between the Tascam and the mixer, TBH I don't know for sure, I'll check next time I'm in the rehearsal room. I'll have a look if they're balanced or not as well.

    Acer Aspire Windows XP, Tascam 1800, Cakewalk A-500 Pro, Yamaha DGX-650, Roland TD3 V-drums, Sonar 8, Reason 3
    http://www.myspace.com/voidmusicuk
    http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/pages/Void/255227371794
    #10
    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/23 10:51:46 (permalink)
    That is good news in a way curb because then it is more than likely an earth loop situation. If the line inputs on the PA are balanced then there is a way wiring a cable that will go from the Tascam to the PA mixer and the earth loop can be broken. But it does need the inputs to the PA mixer to be balanced. They may be jack inputs but it could still be a balanced TRS connection. You may not be able to tell from looking. But get the make and mdoel number of the PA desk and one can download the block diagram at least and it will show if the line inputs are balanced or not.

    Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
     
    Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
    #11
    daveny5
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/23 11:10:47 (permalink)
    unfortunately with Acer you have to use their branded lead otherwise the laptop rejects it, and my battery is pretty poor, it only gives me about 1/2 an hour when recording, I don't want the laptop to shut down half way through a recording.



    You should never use a power supply not intended for the unit your using it on. That's a good way to blow the power supply. DC is very unforgiving. 

    Dave
    Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F
    Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX
    Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic.
    Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. 
    Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
    #12
    curb
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/23 11:33:25 (permalink)
    The mixer is a Yamaha MX4/12, just looked at the manual and it says the line in's that I'm using are balanced TRS jack sockets, although I'm pretty sure I'm using standard jack plugs from the Tascam monitor out.
    Maybe I could try getting a pair of balanced jack leads for next time I go up?
     
    Edit;
    Also the Tascam manual says;
    'Outputs include 4 balanced line, a balanced pair for monitors, digital and headphone.'
     
    So I'll try this next time, you mentioned there was another way of wiring the balanced ins and outs to get rid of the ground loop?
    post edited by curb - 2011/05/23 11:40:36

    Acer Aspire Windows XP, Tascam 1800, Cakewalk A-500 Pro, Yamaha DGX-650, Roland TD3 V-drums, Sonar 8, Reason 3
    http://www.myspace.com/voidmusicuk
    http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/pages/Void/255227371794
    #13
    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/24 18:28:38 (permalink)
    The mixer is the Yamaha 12/4 I assume. There are indeed 8 balanced TRS line inputs. They are connecetd in parrallel to the Mic inputs also via pads so this signal goes thorugh the Mic Pres out of interest.

    To avoid any ground loops you need two cables with a Tip/Sleeve (TS) normal mono jack at one end and at the other a TRS type plug. The shield is wired to the Ring or R part of this plug though and the shield of the TRS plug is left unconnected. Tip to tip of course. This will get the signal into the mixer without a ground connection taking place and thus avoiding any ground loops.

    This is also an ideal way to connect devices such as IMacs, IPods or laptops with internal sound cards into mixers as well without any hum or digital noise being heard as will sometimes happen in some situations. For this you need a mini stereo jack on one end and it should split out to two cables at the other fitted with TRS plugs. The shield is connected to the Ring and the hot wire to the tip etc...on each of these two TRS plugs.

    Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
     
    Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
    #14
    curb
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/25 16:22:51 (permalink)
    Update on the problem;

    I went to rehearsals last night, the problem isn't with the link from the Tascam Interface (monitor out) to the mixer, when I disconnected these cables it made a slight difference to the hum, but not much. similaly, with the cables plugged in there is a slight change when you pull back the faders, but again not much difference.

    With everything connected, laptop plugged into the mains, USB from laptop to Tascam interface, all mic's and DI's plugged in, Tascam Monitor out to Yamaha Mixer, there is a very loud hum that sounds a little like radio interference, ie not constant.
    Switch off the mains to the laptop power supply or unplug the power lead and the noise disappears completely.
    Plug the laptop in again and the noise returns.
    Boot up Sonar with my recording template set up and the noise gets slightly worse.
    Unplug the USB cable from the laptop to the Tascam interface and the noise again disappears completely.
    I also noticed last night that the noise also comes out of the bass amp, which is connected to the mixer via a Behringer Ultra DI - DI20, the bass goes into the DI box and then gets split into 2 channels, 1 to the Bass amp and 1 to the Tascam mic pre channel 8.

    It sounds like it's putting noise onto the mains loop, is there a product that will isolate the laptop lead to the mains socket?

    Acer Aspire Windows XP, Tascam 1800, Cakewalk A-500 Pro, Yamaha DGX-650, Roland TD3 V-drums, Sonar 8, Reason 3
    http://www.myspace.com/voidmusicuk
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    #15
    bbent91745
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/25 18:56:52 (permalink)
    curb,

    See if you can locate an isolation transformer to plug your laptop PS into ... maybe something like a BK Precision 1604A Isolation Transformer.

    Good luck.l

    Regards,
    bbent 

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    DaveT
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/26 17:39:34 (permalink)
    I use a three prong ground lift adapter on my laptop power supply. Solved the issue for me.
    DaveT
    #17
    Cactus Music
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/26 18:39:30 (permalink)
    Ditto what Dave says.  I too have used an Acer laptop for both live performance and recording, It has a terrible hum but the solution was I just snapped the ground pin off, It seems to serve no porpose other than passing CSA/ UL anyhow. You can use a ground lift adapter if this is to violent action for you. Also always try and use the same AC outlet with all audio equipment.
      Just a thought.. my Acer died the other day, it was from 2004, The battery died a couple of years ago so I replaced it with a off brand and that battery died after 1 year.  So just a warning on the 1 in 100 chance that disconnecting the ground pin caused the power supply to go south.
    You need to determine if this hum is a 60/50 cycle AC hum, RF interference or noise generated by the computers power supply.
     
    Also did you try disconnecting the USB cable and see if the hum dies?
    If you are getting RF interference it would possibly come from the interface. Very doubtful that short runs of patch cables would pick up RF, But a bad cable will.  After all, the USB cable is carrying a digital signal so should be immune to RF interference up to that point.

    post edited by Cactus Music - 2011/05/26 18:42:31

    Johnny V  
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    #18
    pooskie
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/27 07:53:47 (permalink)
    yep, mine does the same thing.  a $1.00 ground lift plug fixes everything for me


    #19
    curb
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    Re:Noisy laptop power lead. 2011/05/31 19:22:42 (permalink)
    I couldn't find an adaptor so I cut the Earth (ground) wire off the  plug end of an extension lead, and the good news is it solved the problem. Thanks for your help guys, I just hope I don't electrocute myself while using the laptop lol (I marked it up for laptop use only so no-one else uses it for an amp).

    I bought an extension lead from Maplins as well that was supposed to 'clean up' the mains, but that had no effect, 20 quid wasted, but it was worth a try.

    Thanks for the help again guys.

    Acer Aspire Windows XP, Tascam 1800, Cakewalk A-500 Pro, Yamaha DGX-650, Roland TD3 V-drums, Sonar 8, Reason 3
    http://www.myspace.com/voidmusicuk
    http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/pages/Void/255227371794
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