KeithLuedke
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INSERT TIME in conjunction with METER and TEMPO CHANGES -- It's a bug for me.
Greetings. I wonder if others have seen this behavior?
Section A: 6/8 Meter @ 95 bpm
Section B: 4/4 Meter @ 126 bpm.
The inherent underlying pulse is the quarter note. If you play 2 against 3 in the 6/8, it locks in w/ the 4/4 quarter note, a la Metric Modulation. I digress...
So I decided to do a repeat of the A section, basically cramming a 2nd verse in before the B Section. Simple enough.... Project | Insert Time/Measures... making sure to Slide all the stuff over using the checkboxes... simple stuff.
Giving back the Track view my Marker (B Section) seems to land in an odd place...mid-measure... the tempo slide now ends up on a beat 2 of an adjacent measure. 4/4 sometimes lands correctly N number of measures (the insert measure amount) but usually not.
So I go back into the TEMPO map and tweak the tempo change to the correct M:B, and likewise the METER and ultimately 'hand tool' the measure(s) insertion.
I'm convinced it has to do with the meter as such, because not changing meter, I can insert all day long.
Doing my workflow in this manner may NOT be the best use of doing bulk copy/paste of data. I'm here to 1/ check my sanity against what is a bug for me 2/ ask others how they might accomplish the same feat a less-tedious manner?
____________________________ Keith Luedke
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brundlefly
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Re:INSERT TIME in conjunction with METER and TEMPO CHANGES -- It's a bug for me.
2011/05/27 10:32:35
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I can't reproduce a problem in this scenario. But just to make sure I'm doing the same thing, how long is section A, and how many measures did you insert? And where exactly did the start of sections A and B and B's corresponding tempo change end up after the insertion?
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rbowser
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Re:INSERT TIME in conjunction with METER and TEMPO CHANGES -- It's a bug for me.
2011/05/27 11:38:41
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It sounds like the Insert Time routine is using the wrong time signature for the insert - ?
RB
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KeithLuedke
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Re:INSERT TIME in conjunction with METER and TEMPO CHANGES -- It's a bug for me.
2011/05/27 12:44:36
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agreed. it seems to be off by 2 beats...plus or minus 1 from the down. I didnt do a calculation to determine if its "base 4" or "base 6".... because depending on how many measures on the insert, it would offset by 2 beats... Its a head scratcher for sure.
____________________________ Keith Luedke
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KeithLuedke
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Re:INSERT TIME in conjunction with METER and TEMPO CHANGES -- It's a bug for me.
2011/05/27 12:51:47
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I tried it with arbitrary amounts, ultimately. A LOT of data getting shoved around, but that should not have any bearing. Section A is about 85 bars. B is about 30 bars, repeat A Sec (A') ~70 bars, B' ~30 bars..... if you're following along in your hymnals at home.
if anyone is REALLY curious, I could probably do some screenshots...
____________________________ Keith Luedke
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brundlefly
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Re:INSERT TIME in conjunction with METER and TEMPO CHANGES -- It's a bug for me.
2011/05/27 13:38:39
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Still something missing from the recipe.
I created a project with 84 bars of 6/8 at 95BPM, followed by 30 bars of 4/4 at 126BPM, recorded an audio click to it, copied that to MIDI in another track, using Audiosnap, and inserted 84 bars at 1:01:000 with boxes checked to move Meters and Tempos.
As expected, the A section of the timeline extended to 168 bars of 6/8, with the meter and tempo changes moving to bar 169 along with the MIDI and the audio clips. And the whole thing now ends after 84 + 84 + 30 = 198 bars.
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KeithLuedke
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Re:INSERT TIME in conjunction with METER and TEMPO CHANGES -- It's a bug for me.
2011/05/27 15:57:15
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ok lucky dog!
this time.....go to your bar 158 -1 .... (so you're still in the 2nd 6/8 section). Insert 84 measures there.
Does your 4/4 meter change land properly? What about your tempo change?
____________________________ Keith Luedke
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brundlefly
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Re:INSERT TIME in conjunction with METER and TEMPO CHANGES -- It's a bug for me.
2011/05/27 17:17:13
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Okay. That's definitely flaky. That's kind of why I asked you how many measures you were inserting - because I suspected, if anything, there might be issues when insert more measures than the number of measures between the insertion point and the next meter change.
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lorneyb2
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Re:INSERT TIME in conjunction with METER and TEMPO CHANGES -- It's a bug for me.
2011/05/27 20:40:33
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I am also getting flakey behaviour on the insert measures or copy and slide over with different meters without any tempo variations. It appears to me that it isn't recognizing a measure of a different meter as a measure and is calculating the space needed in the measure value that existed there rather than the space needed for the meter of inserted measure.
On inserting a number of measures of a different meter, if I go one way it results in a space between where the inserted clip ends and the moved one begins. The other way it results in an overlap of the existing materials. (I can't tell you which produces which as I crashed the project without saving (due to my own stupidity))
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KeithLuedke
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Re:INSERT TIME in conjunction with METER and TEMPO CHANGES -- It's a bug for me.
2011/05/30 17:53:52
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So, are there specific 'bugtrack' steps to submit this for a code update?
____________________________ Keith Luedke
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Jimbo 88
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Re:INSERT TIME in conjunction with METER and TEMPO CHANGES -- It's a bug for me.
2011/05/30 18:17:43
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I'm constantly inserting crazy meters (5/16ths etc..) to get beats to land just right against picture. It will cause my metronome to go flaky as described here. Sometimes things will work fine, sometimes not. I tend to not have enough time to iron out any problems, so I just do whatever to get around the problem.
Seems Sonar will have trouble depending where in the time line you will start. And maybe i'm crazy, but it seems Sonar will eventually "figure it out" and after a bunch of times working over an area , the metronome will start behaving correctly. Or perhaps i get use to Sonar's incorrect handling for the metronome.
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jsg
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Re:INSERT TIME in conjunction with METER and TEMPO CHANGES -- It's a bug for me.
2011/05/30 19:31:23
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If your quarter note is 126 in 4/4 your eighth note is 252.
Since you're keeping the pulse the same, the tempo in the 6/8 measure would be quarter = 189 to keep the pulse constant. (126 x 1.5 = 189) the 1.5 is the right number because you're beating 3 eighth notes in the place of 2. The normal metric modulation tempo in the 6/8 measure is 189 (since Sonar only deals with quarter notes when calculating tempo).
I don't know if this calculation is throwing off Sonar, I also do recall also having problems with inserting time/measures in the past, which is probably why I try to avoid it and instead just manually move things around and change meters.
By the way, I've confirmed that a meter of 10/4 will cause a crash under certain conditions:
1. staff view is open
2. An instrument consists of more than one stave (piano, synth)
3. An edit is attempted in staff view on the instrument that uses more than one stave
Workaround: use 2 measures of 5/4.
It is a drag that we have to workaround these limitations on non-pop musical techniques such as metric modulation, irregular and changing time signatures, inserting measures, and God knows how many other yet undiscovered limitations.
I wish Cakewalk would consult with serious composers of art music and then build features that deal with that demand, and then test them out. In America, pop music, pop mentality and pop solutions reign supreme, unfortunately. Sophisticated musical techniques used by contemporary classical composers are often hard to pull off in Sonar without some adjustments and workarounds. But I agree, I think there is some kind of bug in the insert measure function, metric modulation or not.
Jerry Gerber
www.jerrygerber.com
KeithLuedke
Greetings. I wonder if others have seen this behavior?
Section A: 6/8 Meter @ 95 bpm
Section B: 4/4 Meter @ 126 bpm.
The inherent underlying pulse is the quarter note. If you play 2 against 3 in the 6/8, it locks in w/ the 4/4 quarter note, a la Metric Modulation. I digress...
So I decided to do a repeat of the A section, basically cramming a 2nd verse in before the B Section. Simple enough.... Project | Insert Time/Measures... making sure to Slide all the stuff over using the checkboxes... simple stuff.
Giving back the Track view my Marker (B Section) seems to land in an odd place...mid-measure... the tempo slide now ends up on a beat 2 of an adjacent measure. 4/4 sometimes lands correctly N number of measures (the insert measure amount) but usually not.
So I go back into the TEMPO map and tweak the tempo change to the correct M:B, and likewise the METER and ultimately 'hand tool' the measure(s) insertion.
I'm convinced it has to do with the meter as such, because not changing meter, I can insert all day long.
Doing my workflow in this manner may NOT be the best use of doing bulk copy/paste of data. I'm here to 1/ check my sanity against what is a bug for me 2/ ask others how they might accomplish the same feat a less-tedious manner?
|
jsg
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Re:INSERT TIME in conjunction with METER and TEMPO CHANGES -- It's a bug for me.
2011/05/30 19:36:44
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KeithLuedke
So, are there specific 'bugtrack' steps to submit this for a code update?
Yes, just go to Cakewalk problem reporter on their tech support page and type in the steps you did that caused the bug. Tell them what you expected to occur, and what actually occurred. As I said in an earlier post, I think I remember some time ago that I had a problem with changing meters and inserting measures. I think I worked around it by sliding things over and inserting the new meter. Jerry Gerber www.jerrygerber.com
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brundlefly
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Re:INSERT TIME in conjunction with METER and TEMPO CHANGES -- It's a bug for me.
2011/05/30 20:35:26
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It will cause my metronome to go flaky as described here. Metronome timing issues with mixed meters is a different issue. It's caused by the count-in being enabled. Disable count-in, and the metronome will follow meter changes correctly.
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