midi to audio ??

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musoatten
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2011/05/31 15:31:44 (permalink)

midi to audio ??

Hi guys,
I've been reading up on the forum about problems making midi tracks true stereo. I'm using SHS6 via emu 0404 sound card. Basically I can't get my midi tracks to pan left or right although midi tracks are set to 'all stereo'. I can only get them centre.  If i've understood the forum replies correctly - am I right in saying I need to bounce the midi tracks to audio stereo tracks to enable left and right panning. Sorry if I've misunderstood the concept, but it has been bugging me for a while.  Appreciate any help.
 
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    RobertB
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/05/31 16:08:38 (permalink)
    Is that the PCI or USB version of the 0404? They are different animals.
    What synth(s) are you you using?
    Don't use the MS Wavetable Synth. It is a poor choice for a number of reasons.
    Are you trying to pan the MIDI track, or a Synth Audio Track?
    I'll probably have more questions for you, but answer these first.
    I (we) will need to get a clear picture of what you are doing before we can really help.

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    #2
    musoatten
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/05/31 16:17:19 (permalink)
    hello Robert, 0404 is pci, synths are soft synths KP4, GPO3, and Roland VSC. I'm using the ASIO driver for the sound card. I'm trying to pan the midi track. Hope this helps.
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    Beagle
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/05/31 16:32:23 (permalink)
    are you using a MIDI/OUTPUT track or a simple instrument track?
    are you trying to pan a stereo or mono track (panning a stereo track doesn't work the way you might think) - in other words is the output of the synth a MONO or STEREO signal?  some are mono, some are stereo.  it depends on the synth and the patch.
    also - I wouldn't try to use the pan on the midi track itself, use the pan on the output track (if you're using separate midi/output tracks).  if you're using an instrument track then it should work the same as the output track, I think.

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    #4
    musoatten
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/05/31 16:43:14 (permalink)
    Hello Beagle, I'm using the midi output track, and I've selected all tracks for stereo when opening a new project but the track only shows one waveform after recording, when expanded.
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    Beagle
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/05/31 17:08:51 (permalink)
    ok, that's good info.  when you expand it, however, is the one waveform in the upper half of the track, or is it filing both top and bottom?

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    #6
    musoatten
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/05/31 17:17:16 (permalink)
    hello again, Beagle. The waveform is filling both top and bottom.
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    Beagle
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/05/31 17:22:08 (permalink)
    ok - did you try panning from the synth output track instead of from the MIDI track?  BTW - bouncing is not necessary at all for this to work.

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    musoatten
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/05/31 17:32:29 (permalink)
    In a word no, I haven't tried that, but thinking about it I'm guessing you're right as the sound actually comes from the synth not the track. doh! Many thanks beagle.
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    Beagle
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/05/31 18:03:11 (permalink)
    the MIDI pan doesn't work with all softsynths, that's why I recommend never using it there - always pan from the synth output track.

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    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/06/01 04:36:18 (permalink)
    Beagle:
    "are you trying to pan a stereo or mono track (panning a stereo track doesn't work the way you might think)"
     
     
    Beagle means things like this:
    You have a stereo track of a piano. Low keys on the left and high ones on the right channel. When you pan it to the left, what usually happens is the high ones don't move from right to left, but get muted.
    You need a stereo tool VST, like SONARs Channel Tool, to modify the stereo picture.
     
    Instead, if you have a mono track, you can pan it wherever and you hear all the keys.
     
    The rule of thumb is: Mono track for a mono source.

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    musoatten
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/06/01 05:50:20 (permalink)
    Hello again Beagle and Kalle, I've tried panning from the synth track but the sound seems to either centre or go left. When I look at the pan meter volumes, if I pan left thats whats happening on the meters but not whats happening out of the speakers. I have a stand alone stereo amp to power the speakers which has left and right pan, but I keep that centred. Just wondered if the pan control on the amp is overriding the output from the mixer in SHS6? 
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    RobertB
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/06/01 06:38:47 (permalink)
    I wouldn't think that pan control should override a stereo signal.
    How do you have the cables connected?
    Do the outputs from the EMU go to separate left and right inputs on the amp? Are you using any splitters?

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    musoatten
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/06/01 09:35:52 (permalink)
    Hello Robert, The audio cable from the pc comes out of left and right (two mono cables) from emu soundcard, then to a stereo pre amp via stereo quarter inch (6mm) jacks, still mono, into an adaptor to convert from two mono to one stereo, then stereo lead from pre amp to AV connectors left and right to input of stand alone stereo amp.  Come to think of it now I've thought about this set up, the stereo plug in to pre amp has to pulled part way out as I only get sound down one side of stereo. I think I'm going to ditch the stereo pre amp and go straight in to stand alone amp. I'm glad you asked the question about the connections, you may just have sorted the problem.
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    musoatten
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/06/01 11:22:42 (permalink)
    ok so now I've bypassed the pre amp and gone direct in to the stand alone amp from the soundcard. I'm using two soft synths, roland vsc for bass and kontact 4 for the other instruments. Both soft synths are panned centre but bass on vsc comes out of left speaker and the other instruments on kontakt 4 come out of right speaker even though both are centred. When I try to pan from synth track, instrument track or mixer, sound still comes out left if panned left but nothing when panned right. Its as if vsc is permanently panned left and kontakt 4 permanently panned right. 
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    57Gregy
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/06/01 11:26:35 (permalink)
    What are the soft synth outputs, i.e. Bus 2, Master Bus, (name of your sound card) main out?

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    musoatten
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/06/01 11:29:56 (permalink)
    Hello Greg, Soft synths are to master bus and sound card is emu 0404
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    Beagle
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/06/01 14:32:21 (permalink)
    I'm really not understanding your signal path(s).  what does the audio input and the bypassing of the preamp have to do with the softsynths?

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    musoatten
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/06/01 15:30:44 (permalink)
    hello Beagle. The reason I took out the pre amp was because the jack input on it, from the soundcard, didn't work on the left channel if pushed right in, but had to be pulled out a little bit to get both left and right to work. I thought it was the position of the jack plug that was causing the problem, hence I took out the pre amp from the equation. However, I've sorted what the problem was. It was all to do with how I had the outputs set up. I was trying to send the instruments left and right when I should have been setting the outputs left and right, then sending the instruments down the appropriate output. Do you see what I mean? Anyway guys thank you so much for your suggestions, and as you thought the problem did revolve around the output set up.  
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    Beagle
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/06/01 16:41:55 (permalink)
    well, not really sure what you mean, but I do agree that if you were having problems with panning softsynths that it has nothing to do with the inputs - it only has to do with the outputs. 

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    57Gregy
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/06/01 16:59:14 (permalink)
    Removing the pre-amp from the chain removes one possible bad jack from the chain.

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    Beagle
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/06/01 17:16:24 (permalink)
    57Gregy


    Removing the pre-amp from the chain removes one possible bad jack from the chain.

    greg - I must be completely lost on this thread.  it has me REALLY confused, but your comment here and Bob's comments above must mean that I'm the one who doesn't understand what's going on.  maybe you can help me figure out what I'm missing?
     
    how does the preamp (or anything on the AUDIO INPUT side) have anything to do with panning of a softsynth?  I'm completely confused about this.

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    Beagle
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/06/01 17:26:53 (permalink)
    I also know that above he says that panning doesn't affect the actual sound from the speakers.  that would indicate to me that he might have the speakers set up incorrectly OR that the output in the soundcard software is set to MONO (I don't think I've ever used a soundcard with that option, but I"m sure it's possible).

    but what I'm so confused about is the "bypassing of the PREAMP" or the 1/2 inserted jack on the INPUT and how that has anything to do with panning of the stereo speakers or the softsynth.

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    RobertB
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/06/01 21:35:49 (permalink)
    Reece, I'm still a little puzzled by this one.
    But as far as the preamp goes, he had it between the 0404 outputs and the amp inputs. Come to think of it, the pre shouldn't have been there anyway.
    I focused on the cabling because of the disconnect between what the meters were showing, and what was coming from the speakers.
    It was looking like the problem was at the source(the synths, as it appears was the case) or somewhere in the delivery, between the sound card and the amp. I was trying to rule out delivery.

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    Beagle
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    Re:midi to audio ?? 2011/06/01 22:05:24 (permalink)
    OK, he had a preamp between the 0404 outputs and the "amp" inputs?  amp for the speakers?  wow - that could have caused all kinds of problems, espcially with incorrect cabling.

    still not 100% sure of what he was doing, but at least that's a little more clear now!

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