Recomendations on sample rate and bit dept

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gcolbert
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2011/06/02 20:33:28 (permalink)

Recomendations on sample rate and bit dept

So I have some devices that are only capable of 41/16 and others that do 48/24.  It looks like my tracks are created in 48/32 when I bounce an audio track.  When I look at a project's files after my tracking process I seem to have a little bit of everything. 
 
From what I understand reading various posts in these forums, this is not a good state to be in.  What I could use is some advise on should I convert each track to the same sample/bit rate (after tracking) and if so, what should I convert to? 
 
It seems that I should be converting to the highest sample/bit rate that my output devices are capable of.  If this is the case, I probably shouldn't be bouncing the tracks to 32 bit.  How big of a deal is this anyway (quality vs. performance)?  Are there sound cards that will handle 48/32?
 
Thanks
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    57Gregy
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    Re:Recomendations on sample rate and bit dept 2011/06/02 20:48:08 (permalink)
    From what I've read on these forums, 44.1 @ 16-bit is CD-standard, so if you're mixing down to a CD that will play on all CD players, that's what you should use, again, when mixing down.
    But for recording, you should use 44.1 or 48 at 24-bit for greater headroom. That 32-bit you're reading is what SONAR uses, not what you should use when mixing down. I don't know of any interfaces that use higher than 24-bit depth, but I'm sure someone has one.
    Anything higher than 48 kHz is unnecessary unless you're mixing a soundtrack for a DVD, which is 96 kHz, if I recall correctly.
    In the end, use what you want (except for CDs) and what your audio interface can handle, but remember that higher sampling rates use more hard drive space. Not really a concern in this day and age of humongous hard drives.

    Greg 
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    #2
    Bub
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    Re:Recomendations on sample rate and bit dept 2011/06/03 00:59:54 (permalink)
    I did a test recently and posted it, unfortunately the forum server crashed and my post, along with hundreds of others were lost.

    Here's what I found ... it all depends on your interface (sound card). In my tests on my Fast Track Ultra a higher sample rate of 96kHz provided better high end response but the low end was muddy and less defined. Recording at 44.1 provided great bass response but the high end was rolled off at around 15k. I could hear all the way up to 16.5kHz iirc when I did the tests at 96kHz. In theory none of that makes sense, but that's what I got.

    Like Greg said, there are no sound cards that support 32 bit yet, they currently only go up to 24bit. 32 bit comes in to play if you have applied an effect to an audio track and you have Sonar set to process it in 32bit. When you are playing it back in Sonar, it is being converted to 24bit (or 16bit depending on your project settings). That's where your dither settings in audio options come in to play. I have mine set to Triangular, but remember, it's only for playback when you have 32 bit or higher wav files in a project. When you export a project, you can temporarily change your dither setting there, but it should come up default to what you set in options.

    The biggest benefit to using a higher sampling rate is, the higher the sample rate, the lower your latency becomes.

    The other thing I like to do is, I export my final mix/master in 32bit. It may be in my head, but I think 32bit sounds better. If I need to export for CD, then I set it to 44.1/16 and use Triangular dither. I also make MP3's out of the 32bit wave.

    Too bad my post got lost with my test results ... it was a really good thread.  A rarity for me. 

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    gcolbert
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    Re:Recomendations on sample rate and bit dept 2011/06/03 07:24:03 (permalink)
    So it is sounding like sound quality isn't an issue when a project has a lot of mixed format tracks then?  There must be some kind of performance hit however if twenty tracks are being converted from one format to another when they are played back.  It seems that (eventually) all of the tracks need to be converted to the sample rate and bit depth of the current output device. 
     
    Would I see a performance improvement if my output device (sound card) is set to 48,000/24 and all of the tracks were converted to the same sample rate and bit depth, or is conversion just not that CPU intensive of an operation? 
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    57Gregy
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    Re:Recomendations on sample rate and bit dept 2011/06/03 11:37:35 (permalink)
    If you had a project with a bunch of mp3 tracks your friend in BFE emailed you, SONAR wil play it just fine. If you add more tracks at whatever sampling rate/bit depth, SONAR would continue playing it with no problems. It's not necessary to convert the mp3s prior to importing, nor would you notice any improvement in the sound of the mp3 tracks. I think.
    When you export the project for mastering or burning to CD, then all the tracks will be converted to the same parameters you select in the Export dialog.

    Greg 
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    mxz583
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    Re:Recomendations on sample rate and bit dept 2011/06/03 19:51:51 (permalink)
    the higher your bit depth and sample rate the more latency you will have.
    If you are really interested in understanding the benefits of higher sample rates it has to do with the Nyquist theorem, higher sample rates really just mean that you are recording more samples per segment of time, for example 44.1 KHz is 44,100 samples per second
    The higher the sample rate the more [size=3 font="times new roman"]accurately  the sound is reproduced because there is more information contained in the signal, thus the higher latency (more to process)
    the differences between 44.1 and 48 are way to subtle for the human ear to detect.
    32 bit is what sonar uses for processing it has nothing to do with the final product.
    i wold guess that sonar applies your settings at the input and output stages so anything in between will not cause any problems.


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    Beagle
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    Re:Recomendations on sample rate and bit dept 2011/06/03 20:06:01 (permalink)
    actually, that's not quite true, Greg (mxz583).  first, the bit depth has nothing to do with latency at all (it does, however, increase the FILE SIZE on the harddrive).  2nd, the higher the sample rate, the LOWER the latency will be, but the higher the resource load will be.

    for example, if you have your buffers set so that at 44.1kHz sampling rate your input latency = 5.8msec (typical for 256buffers)
    if you increase your sampling rate to 48kHz, your input latency will reduce to 5.3msec (at same 256buffers)
    if you increase your sampling rate to 88.2kHz, your input latency will reduce to 2.9msec (at same 256 buffers)
    if you increase your sampling rate to 96kHz, your input latency will reduce to 2.7msec (at 256 buffers)
    if you increase your sampling rate to 192kHz, your input latency will reduce to 1.3msec (at 256 buffers)

    unfortunately, tho, what happens is that with every increase at the same buffer size you're going to start experiencing pops, clicks, stuttering and even dropout the higher you go with the same buffers.
    post edited by Beagle - 2011/06/03 20:07:22

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    Beagle
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    Re:Recomendations on sample rate and bit dept 2011/06/03 20:11:17 (permalink)
    gcolbert - the only REAL benefit, IMO, to increasing the sampling rate beyond 44.1kHz would be for the benefit of reducing your latency if your system resources can handle the load (CPU, Hard drive and bus to the hard drive and RAM, in that order).

    redbook standards are 16bit/44.1kHz for CD quality.  so you have to reduce your sampling rate to 44.1kHz for wave files and mp3s anyway in the end.

    24bit recording, however, is a big plus.  if you record at 24 bit then you have a lot more resolution to mix with, so you can record at lower levels and still get a lot more resolution of the digital signal you recorded for mixing.  it allows you to record at lower levels with the same dynamic range that you have recording at 16bit.

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    Beagle
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    Re:Recomendations on sample rate and bit dept 2011/06/03 20:15:03 (permalink)
    and BTW - I'm not saying that Bub is wrong.  I'm simply saying that out of all of the differences he measured, the only real benefit IMO, is the reduced latency at higher sampling rates.  the rest of it is not enough of a difference to go through the hassle of the higher rates.

    a lot of softsynths won't work at the higher rates.  TTS-1, in fact, doesn't work at 88.2kHz at all (there is some argument about that, but I still think those guys were not telling the full story...different subject).

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    mxz583
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    Re:Recomendations on sample rate and bit dept 2011/06/03 20:30:13 (permalink)
    ok i should have phrased that differently Beagle is correct as always i should have said that you will probably end up with higher latency because the buffer size might need to be increased to avoid clicks.
    You are right about TTS-1 i have tried, it does not work at 88.2

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    gcolbert
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    Re:Recomendations on sample rate and bit dept 2011/06/03 21:49:45 (permalink)
    Thank you all so much for the responses.  I'm still assimilating it all, but it seems like the consensus is that having a mixed bag of sampling and bit rates in different tracks in a project is not a worry.  Keeps me from doing a bunch of track conversions needlesly.
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    Beagle
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    Re:Recomendations on sample rate and bit dept 2011/06/04 07:44:39 (permalink)
    you can't have mixed bit and/or sampling rates inside the same project.  sonar will not let you do that.  it will convert whatever you import to the sampling rate and bit rate of the project you're working on.

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    daveny5
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    Re:Recomendations on sample rate and bit dept 2011/06/04 08:57:50 (permalink)
    You should only be using one soundcard at a time anyway. Unless they are the same model, you will have timing problems. 

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    Bub
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    Re:Recomendations on sample rate and bit dept 2011/06/04 16:58:20 (permalink)
    Beagle


    actually, that's not quite true, Greg (mxz583).  first, the bit depth has nothing to do with latency at all (it does, however, increase the FILE SIZE on the harddrive).  2nd, the higher the sample rate, the LOWER the latency will be, but the higher the resource load will be.

    for example, if you have your buffers set so that at 44.1kHz sampling rate your input latency = 5.8msec (typical for 256buffers)
    if you increase your sampling rate to 48kHz, your input latency will reduce to 5.3msec (at same 256buffers)
    if you increase your sampling rate to 88.2kHz, your input latency will reduce to 2.9msec (at same 256 buffers)
    if you increase your sampling rate to 96kHz, your input latency will reduce to 2.7msec (at 256 buffers)
    if you increase your sampling rate to 192kHz, your input latency will reduce to 1.3msec (at 256 buffers)

    unfortunately, tho, what happens is that with every increase at the same buffer size you're going to start experiencing pops, clicks, stuttering and even dropout the higher you go with the same buffers.
    My projects are 96/24/128 buffers and I never get pops and clicks. But I've spent hours tweaking my system to get it that stable. :) Plus, I freeze every track that has FX on it. That makes a big difference also.

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    Beagle
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    Re:Recomendations on sample rate and bit dept 2011/06/04 18:02:07 (permalink)
    Bub


    Beagle


    actually, that's not quite true, Greg (mxz583).  first, the bit depth has nothing to do with latency at all (it does, however, increase the FILE SIZE on the harddrive).  2nd, the higher the sample rate, the LOWER the latency will be, but the higher the resource load will be.

    for example, if you have your buffers set so that at 44.1kHz sampling rate your input latency = 5.8msec (typical for 256buffers)
    if you increase your sampling rate to 48kHz, your input latency will reduce to 5.3msec (at same 256buffers)
    if you increase your sampling rate to 88.2kHz, your input latency will reduce to 2.9msec (at same 256 buffers)
    if you increase your sampling rate to 96kHz, your input latency will reduce to 2.7msec (at 256 buffers)
    if you increase your sampling rate to 192kHz, your input latency will reduce to 1.3msec (at 256 buffers)

    unfortunately, tho, what happens is that with every increase at the same buffer size you're going to start experiencing pops, clicks, stuttering and even dropout the higher you go with the same buffers.
    My projects are 96/24/128 buffers and I never get pops and clicks. But I've spent hours tweaking my system to get it that stable. :) Plus, I freeze every track that has FX on it. That makes a big difference also.


    yes, working in audio only with frozen FX makes a huge difference!

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