MIDI Layers - What am I missing? (SOLVED!)

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codamedia
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2011/06/03 10:14:52 (permalink)

MIDI Layers - What am I missing? (SOLVED!)

 I've never taken advantage of layers that much in the past, but decided to give it a try lately. I am not having any problems with Audio. Each take I do creates a new layer and I can slice and dice a part without any problem.
 
My issue is with Midi. Like many, I use EZ Drummer or Superior Drummer to create parts. On the primary layer I drag and drop my parts. When I go to add a few extras (maybe some crash cymbals, the odd fill etc...) I want to do this on a new midi layer. I create the layer, choose to select the layer yet the part drops into the primary layer. When I move the part - it creates a hole in the primary layer.
 
I got this idea from the Sonar Master Class on drum production - where I believe about 5 minutes into the 3rd video they go over this. In that sample (done on 8.5 I believe) the added part lands on the primary layer, but when it is moved it does not create a hole, it simply moves the new part and leaves the part underneath in tact.
 
Under preferences > project I am set for Sound on Sound - but aside from that I cannot seem to find any midi setting for this. I am missing something really simply, but need some direction
post edited by codamedia - 2011/06/03 17:06:07

Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take! 
 

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    JoshWolfer
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    Re:MIDI Layers - What am I missing? 2011/06/03 10:35:32 (permalink)
    I'm not sure about your specific use, since I do it differently. If I need to separate midi date, I just create another midi track routed to the same soft synth and use that one, keeping them separate. In PRV, I'll load them both to see the combined data. 

    This can be really useful for creating fill layers, like extra taps on the hats that you only want to copy to certain parts of songs.



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    #2
    codamedia
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    Re:MIDI Layers - What am I missing? 2011/06/03 10:53:37 (permalink)
    Josh,

    Yes, that would work just fine and is certainly a very workable option. This is how I used to do all my audio as well until so many suggested (adamantly) that I should be using layers instead of tracks  

    I would still like to know if there is an answer to my initial question/problem, but if there isn't - I'll be using your approach.

    Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take! 
     

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    rbowser
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    Re:MIDI Layers - What am I missing? 2011/06/03 11:01:48 (permalink)
    codamedia


    I've never taken advantage of layers that much in the past, but decided to give it a try lately. I am not having any problems with Audio. Each take I do creates a new layer and I can slice and dice a part without any problem.
     
    My issue is with Midi. Like many, I use EZ Drummer or Superior Drummer to create parts. On the primary layer I drag and drop my parts. When I go to add a few extras (maybe some crash cymbals, the odd fill etc...) I want to do this on a new midi layer. I create the layer, choose to select the layer yet the part drops into the primary layer. When I move the part - it creates a hole in the primary layer.
     
    I got this idea from the Sonar Master Class on drum production - where I believe about 5 minutes into the 3rd video they go over this. In that sample (done on 8.5 I believe) the added part lands on the primary layer, but when it is moved it does not create a hole, it simply moves the new part and leaves the part underneath in tact.
     
    Under preferences > project I am set for Sound on Sound - but aside from that I cannot seem to find any midi setting for this. I am missing something really simply, but need some direction


    Hi, Coda - Well, what you're describing is what happens when you have "Overwrite (Replace" chosen in Record Options instead of Sound on Sound.  That setting effects your MIDI.---- I can't get to my computer with X1 on it, so I'm referring to 8.5, and that's where the Record Options were under Transport.  Looks like you know where to find that option in X1 - But the only time you get the "hole in the primary layer" effect is when you don't have Sound on Sound selected, so you need to check again.

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    eternal85
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    Re:MIDI Layers - What am I missing? 2011/06/03 11:13:25 (permalink)
    My first thought was are you holding down Ctrl when moving that part so it creates a copy of the part?
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    codamedia
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    Re:MIDI Layers - What am I missing? 2011/06/03 12:18:13 (permalink)
    Eternal85: No, I am not holding down the control - just moving the part. The part moves great, but leaves a giant hole instead of leaving the original part untouched in the primary layer.

    rbrowser: That is exactly what I was thinking. The setting is definitely set to "Sound on Sound" which is why I am confused. Maybe I need to jog that setting (change it to overwrite > Save. Change back to Sound on Sound > Save) just to make sure it is sticking.  At the same time, I will open up my 8.5 and see if I get the same results there.


    Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take! 
     

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    brundlefly
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    Re:MIDI Layers - What am I missing? 2011/06/03 12:19:28 (permalink)
    When I go to add a few extras (maybe some crash cymbals, the odd fill etc...) I want to do this on a new midi layer. I create the layer, choose to select the layer yet the part drops into the primary layer.



    Where are you dragging this new "part" from? You can select a clip in a layer, but it's not possible to "select" an empty layer per se. When you drag a clip from another track  or project, it goes into whichever layer your mouse pointer is over when you release it, but files dragged from the Media browser or other sources (e.g. patterns from Session Drummer) default to the "primary" (i.e. topmost) layer.


    As for dragging the new clip creating a hole in another clip, I'm wondering if you have all the patches installed, as there was a problem (fixed in X1a, I believe) that selecting a layer or lassoing part of a layer would select the same range of other layers.

    Other than that, I can't think if a setting in SONAR that could cause the behavior you're describing. Record mode will not affect the independence of dragged clips, and even disabling non-destructive MIDI editing will not cause overlapping layers to merge automatically.

    One workaround might be to maintain a "dummy" MIDI track that you use as an initial destination for files dragged into the project, and then drag the new clip from there to the layer in which you want it.







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    codamedia
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    Re:MIDI Layers - What am I missing? 2011/06/03 12:35:06 (permalink)
    Thanks Brundlefly: I am running X1b without any quick fixes at this time. I reverted due to another problem a few days back, but I will put the latest QF in and see if that fixes it.

    The parts are dragging into the primary layer (from EZ or Superior), but when I move them to a new layer - it is leaving a big hole in the part that was there. I just verified this is happening in both 8.5 & X1, regardless of the Recording setting (sound on sound or overwrite).

    Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take! 
     

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    codamedia
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    Re:MIDI Layers - What am I missing? 2011/06/03 12:49:31 (permalink)
    No difference with Quick Fix 255 installed.

    For reference, here is the video of the Cakewalk Master Class (done on 8.5, but that shouldn't matter)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3sKXjBgjoE

    At about 5:50 he moves a clip in the manner I am trying. In that sample, the layer underneath is still in tact, mine is leaving a hole!

    This is not the end of the world by any means - I'll simply use a 2nd midi track if needed.
    Any other suggestions?

    Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take! 
     

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    brundlefly
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    Re:MIDI Layers - What am I missing? 2011/06/03 13:13:13 (permalink)
    The parts are dragging into the primary layer (from EZ or Superior), but when I move them to a new layer - it is leaving a big hole in the part that was there. I just verified this is happening in both 8.5 & X1, regardless of the Recording setting (sound on sound or overwrite).



    The question I still have is whether the MIDI events from the first layer are going with the new clip being dragged to another layer, or were they over-written when the pattern was dropped into the track?


    If the latter, that may be something specific to the way dragging and dropping from EZ/Superior works.


    Can you reproduce the problem by dragging files from the Media Browser or by creating new clips with Step Sequencer as in the video?













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    codamedia
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    Re:MIDI Layers - What am I missing? 2011/06/03 15:44:54 (permalink)
    The section of the original midi clip is being overwritten. As soon as I drop the pattern on, the new pattern takes over in that area.

    I was thinking this might be a ToonTrack things as well, so I actually setup a Step Sequencer Pattern, then created a 2nd SS pattern (just like the video does) and I still get the same results. It is overwriting, not blending the two parts.

    I just tried with some Midi Clips from the browser, same results again! (thanks for suggesting that one as well)

    I'm stumped

    Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take! 
     

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    brundlefly
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    Re:MIDI Layers - What am I missing? 2011/06/03 16:57:38 (permalink)
    Duh. Brain not working today:

    It's the drag and drop options in Preferences > Customization > Editing.  Change from Replace to Blend.





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    codamedia
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    Re:MIDI Layers - What am I missing? 2011/06/03 17:03:23 (permalink)
    brundlefly


    Duh. Brain not working today:

    It's the drag and drop options in Preferences > Customization > Editing.  Change from Replace to Blend.


    That's it! I knew it was something simple being overlooked. I wasn't thinking "drag and drop" but of course, that's exactly what I'm doing - not recording! Thanks!

    Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take! 
     

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    brundlefly
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    Re:MIDI Layers - What am I missing? 2011/06/03 19:08:19 (permalink)
    Glad to help. Better late than never, as they say. 

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