Live recording question!

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windsurfer25x
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2011/06/13 17:14:56 (permalink)

Live recording question!

I was asked to record a band for at their CD release party, I went over to the venue today to take a look at the mixer. It was a Mackie mixer, there were a few pairs of auxillary outs but they were all being used (I assume for monitoring) Anyways the guy that contacted me wants me to record them and get a better sound then they would from just the mixer going straight into the HD video camera. 

I've done this before, but it was for a much larger event and the sound team had a split snake which I used, this is much smaller..

For audio interfaces I have a V Studio 100 and a Tascam US 2000... I was thinking I could use the Tascam US-2000 and feed the main outs (which would normally go to my studio monitors) to the mixer. I think there was a drummer two guitarists a bass and a cello + singer. The venue was going to mic everything up and just use the mixer... in order for me to get a good recording/mix I thought I could substitute my US 2000... I'm not an expert or anything on live sound and I know this would introduce some latency probably about 10msec RTL.
The concert is supposed to be 3 hrs

 Is this a good idea? Is there a better way to do this?
Would you guys say I'm (not) equipped to do this well?

I'd like to take the job, but not if I can't do a proper job of it. Thanks for the input


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16 Replies Related Threads

    dlogan
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    Re:Live recording question! 2011/06/13 17:28:27 (permalink)
    Could you have the aux outs from the mixer (that you think are currently feeding the monitors - power amp, etc?) go into your V Studio, and then have your V Studio feed the monitors with the input signal?

    A 3 hour recording project with no stops would make me nervous.
    #2
    windsurfer25x
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    Re:Live recording question! 2011/06/13 17:34:39 (permalink)
    I did it before once before without a hitch (using a split snake, actually that's what I was doing in my profile picture for a concert out doors last year).

    I can't have stops its going to be synced with the HD video after

    What you suggested would be possible, but then I'm just recording the stereo mix. I think it'd be ideal if I could record all the inputs individually? Like I said my live (concert) recording experience is limited, just the one time I recorded a live outdoor performance for a city's summer concert series and that was with a split snake. Am I expecting too much to want to capture each input individually? 

    (Wishing I had an RME UFX)



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    #3
    windsurfer25x
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    Re:Live recording question! 2011/06/13 17:35:48 (permalink)
    Just for information the US-2000 has 16 in and 4 out + (main monitor outs)



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    Rbh
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    Re:Live recording question! 2011/06/13 23:44:49 (permalink)
    I think most Mackies have a sort of half normaled channel split out on each channel insert  if you insert a TRS jack halfway in. Use that in combination to tapping the sub outs in the same fashion and you should be able to pull most of your inputs pre fader.

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    skullsession
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    Re:Live recording question! 2011/06/14 07:08:00 (permalink)
    Personally, I wouldn't even attempt something like this if I didn't have splits (of one form or the other) for every channel....otherwise, you might as well just capture a mix off of the board...which usually sucks.

    Introducing ANYTHING (besides splitters) into the chain prior to the FOH mixer is going to really get under the skin of most engineers.  And if there's anyone in the venue that you want on your side, it's the FOH engineer.  They can tend to be pretty territorial.

    Talk to THAT GUY as soon as possible.  Let him know what the band is hiring you to do, and that you're going to try to be as helpful and non-intrusive as possible...but that you've got to get it done one way or the other.  He should know his system well enough to tell you what he thinks your best options are.

    Don't surprise the guy and just show up.

    You might have to buy splitters and enough cables to supply yourself and the FOH guy with feeds from the individual instruments, so make sure you charge at least enough to cover your expenses.  And then, in the future, you'll have the gear to make things like this profitable.  (Assuming you plan to do this fairly often.)

    It's a lot of work....good luck!

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    Karyn
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    Re:Live recording question! 2011/06/14 08:12:47 (permalink)
    What sort of mixer is being used for FOH?  Does it have inserts?  You can make up a set of "taps" for the inserts.  Stereo plug with tip/ring joined -> mono plug.   Joining the tip/ring  on the insert taps the signal without breaking the path into the FOH mixer and is 100% safer than "pushing the plug in half way"

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Live recording question! 2011/06/14 08:22:38 (permalink)
    Does the mixer have direct outs?

    That would be the best point to tap into provided they're set to pre & not post

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:Live recording question! 2011/06/14 08:58:21 (permalink)
    What Karyn Said.

    For example; the old Mackie 1604 had 8 direct outs on the first 8 channels.... you can use them as a splitter.

    Then you might use splitters on the other channels.

    Good split systems are rather expensive... and either use top of the line transformers or active circuits or both... maybe $3k for 24 channels.

    Perhaps the band can rent one?

    Depending upon where you put the splitter... you may need a recording snake too.


    best regards,
    mike




    #9
    Karyn
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    Re:Live recording question! 2011/06/14 10:50:51 (permalink)
    of course you could always rent/buy a Presonus Firestudio interface.  They have a direct output for each channel that acts as a pass-through specifically for sending to FOH without affecting the signal.  Even if your recording computer crashes, as long as there's power to the firestudio the FOH sound won't be affected.

    You can expand it with 2 DigiMax boxes to give 24 channels, all with pass-through, or even chain 2 firestudios with expansions to give 48 channels...

    This is how its done

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    windsurfer25x
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    Re:Live recording question! 2011/06/14 11:18:19 (permalink)
    My computer is allergic to firewire


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    windsurfer25x
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    Re:Live recording question! 2011/06/14 16:09:24 (permalink)
    Well I got in touch with the FOS guy and the last two times a show was recorded and splitters were rented, which were apparently not working right, and it end up costing the venue time and money so they're not willing to go the splitter route. So looks like my options are pretty limited... mic the room and take a stereo feed from the board.. Waiting to hear back from the FOS guy once more and then I'll have to present the options to the client... 

    Unfortunately I don't get work like this often enough to justify getting a bunch of splitters I looked at some online after it was mentioned here. 


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    craigb
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    Re:Live recording question! 2011/06/15 17:17:12 (permalink)
    skullsession


    Personally, I wouldn't even attempt something like this if I didn't have splits (of one form or the other) for every channel....otherwise, you might as well just capture a mix off of the board...which usually sucks.

    Introducing ANYTHING (besides splitters) into the chain prior to the FOH mixer is going to really get under the skin of most engineers.  And if there's anyone in the venue that you want on your side, it's the FOH engineer.  They can tend to be pretty territorial.

    Talk to THAT GUY as soon as possible.  Let him know what the band is hiring you to do, and that you're going to try to be as helpful and non-intrusive as possible...but that you've got to get it done one way or the other.  He should know his system well enough to tell you what he thinks your best options are.

    Don't surprise the guy and just show up.

    You might have to buy splitters and enough cables to supply yourself and the FOH guy with feeds from the individual instruments, so make sure you charge at least enough to cover your expenses.  And then, in the future, you'll have the gear to make things like this profitable.  (Assuming you plan to do this fairly often.)

    It's a lot of work....good luck!


    Hehe...  Too true!  You'd be better off trying to sneak past a troll under his bridge.

     
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    #13
    skullsession
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    Re:Live recording question! 2011/06/16 07:25:59 (permalink)
    Some surely can be grumpy...no doubt.

    But to be fair - ABILITY/QUALITY aside - most FOH guys I've met over the years have been pretty cool guys if you take the time to talk to them.  I try to treat them with a little respect, and come at them knowledgeable and with a helpful attitude.

    I honestly believe that they're so used to only hearing from the pissed off girlfriends and fans..."Why can't I hear the guitar"....or "You NEED to turn up the vocals", that they're in automatic defensive mode.

    I've dealt with them accordingly.  If I come at them in a friendly, helpful way - and they don't warm up within a few minutes, I'm not afraid to PUNT a paying gig.  Because it's usually not possible to get a decent recording without him buying into what's going on, and he gotta be willing to do things a bit differently from his "norm".  You just have to do your best to keep his hassle to a minimum.  After all...he's probably getting paid 1/10th of what you are.  And in the end, YOU can't afford to deliver crappy product because you're behind someone else's 8-ball.

    But that's just ME.  Early for the setup.  Stay late for the tear-down.  Carry your own reliable splitters and snakes.  Bring enough good cables to tie both of you into the splitters.  Bring your own mics in case there are problems.

    If, in the end, all I could do is record the room and a stero feed from the board....I'd punt.

    I just couldn't see myself charging a band for that....and I certainly wouldn't do it for free.

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    #14
    SCorey
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    Re:Live recording question! 2011/06/16 10:15:13 (permalink)
    they're so used to only hearing from the pissed off girlfriends and fans..."Why can't I hear the guitar"....or "You NEED to turn up the vocals", that they're in automatic defensive mode.

    Yep, I'd agree with that, particularly since I was one of those sound guys.  Add to the list an upset show producer who was deaf and kept asking me to turn it up even though after every show I always got complaints from someone in the audience that it was too loud.

    If you can't get splits of each channel from the board, try a stereo room mic plus stereo board mix going to 4 tracks on the recorder. I've had decent results with that approach and doing a balance of the two in post. Providing the room mix is good...

    -Steve Corey
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    Rbh
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    Re:Live recording question! 2011/06/16 19:08:30 (permalink)
    Mackies are designed for splitting off the insert.  Have a model number? You can pull up the manual online.

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re:Live recording question! 2011/06/16 19:44:04 (permalink)
    You have got to be a bit careful when you are using insert sends etc for recording applications. You need to get the exact model number of the mixer and download the block diagram to see where in the signal chain the inserts actually are. On many mixers (Mackie included I am pretty sure) the inserts are certainly after the EQ and even after the channel fader in some cases.

    Then you are at the mercy at what EQ (good or most likely BAD) the FOH engineer is using and if the channel fader is involved you are getting their level changes as well which may not be all that great either.

    Some mixers allow the insert points (and direct outs) to be switchable eg (Allen and Heath) but you have to open them up to do it.

    The old splitters are the way to go as Skullsession has indicated. Although they can be expensive and you will need either a lot of audio interfaces or another sep recording mixer to do it too. But it does ensure you get the raw signals and nothing else. You may be able to hire the splitters as well if it is something you are not doing so often.


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