Dropouts from multiple cloned vocal tracks

Author
dscoyne
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 121
  • Joined: 2006/10/05 22:48:38
  • Status: offline
2011/06/13 22:28:30 (permalink)

Dropouts from multiple cloned vocal tracks

This seems weird, but I assume there is an explanation.  In an effort to build up my weak voice, I am cloning a vocal track 4 times, and then using different presets on each of the 4 tracks in VX-64 to balance it out.  The vocal track I am cloning has already gone thru pitch correction in V-vocal.
 
The problem is that on playback of the song from the beginning, there is one point where for just a couple of measures, it sounds like one or more of the cloned tracks drops out.  (The voice sounds different and at lower volume.)
 
The weird part is that if I start playback just before the problem measures,  all tracks are heard fine, no dropouts noticeable.  And if I play those tracks one at a time, they all sound fine and consistent in volume.  The problem is only noticeable when playing the whole mix from earlier in the song.
 
Any idea what could be causing this?  Thanks.......Don
#1

7 Replies Related Threads

    sharpdion23
    Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 784
    • Joined: 2009/04/26 18:07:59
    • Location: Vancouver, BC
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts from multiple cloned vocal tracks 2011/06/13 22:41:29 (permalink)
    You should not have to clone your vocals 4 times unless you are vocal layering. You should watch some videos on vocal eq, compression, and vocal strip.
    post edited by sharpdion23 - 2011/06/13 22:44:11

    Win7 pro 64bit*SonarX1 PE 64 bit* AMD Athlon(tm)64 X2 Dual Processor 6000+ 3.00 Ghz* 4GB Ram* 232GB HD* Cakewalk MA-15D* SPS-66 FireWire

    Owner of Sonar 6 Studio* Sonar 7 PE * Sonar 8.0 PE * Sonar 8.5.3 PE * Sonar X1 PE *

    Link to upload Screens: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1592276


    A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
    #2
    bitflipper
    01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
    • Total Posts : 26036
    • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
    • Location: Everett, WA USA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts from multiple cloned vocal tracks 2011/06/13 23:37:44 (permalink)
    Perhaps you are experiencing phase cancellations. Is EQ the only effect in use? Does the same thing happen if you substitute a different equalizer?


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

    My Stuff
    #3
    JoshWolfer
    Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 372
    • Joined: 2011/05/22 03:55:26
    • Location: California, USA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts from multiple cloned vocal tracks 2011/06/14 00:48:33 (permalink)
    they're probably cancelling each other out. Don't duplicate vocal tracks. That's not how you properly double and thicken. 

    I recommend actually singing the same part 3 times across three different tracks. 

    Primary track: Centered: full body
    secondary: mostly hard left: eq out the bottom, small high mid boost with a high mid cut (like sine shape), possible cut highs
    tertiary: mostly hard right: eq out the bottom, inverse high mid boost and cuts from your second track. 

    The vocal strip has a decent doubler as well. I'd probably put a little bit of that in your main track, maybe a touch in your side tracks as well as a really quick, fast decaying delay. 

    Just my 2 cents. This is more of a pop thickener. It's what I do. not sure if it'll fit for you, but that's my technique.

    The key is to have TIGHT double and triples. If they aren't tight, splice em up and nudge them to be tight. You don't want a sloppy double. Anyone can do that and it sounds just that... sloppy.

    Josh Wolfer - Big Dumb Monkey Productions - www.bigdumbmonkey.com (Twitter @bigdumbmonkeyp)
    Sonar 8.5.3 / X1b :: 2.8 Ghz core i7 :: 8GB ram :: V-Studio 700 C+R :: Maudio Profire 2626 (ADAT lightpipe into Vstudio)

    #4
    Kalle Rantaaho
    Max Output Level: -5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 7005
    • Joined: 2006/01/09 13:07:59
    • Location: Finland
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts from multiple cloned vocal tracks 2011/06/14 09:24:50 (permalink)
    Josh has good info above.
    IMO for a not so skilled singer ADT (artificial double tracking=copying) is quite an acceptable thing to do. I would settle with double, though, if you're not after a choir effect. Remember to nudge the parts  some 20-30 milliseconds apart.

    Phase cancellation is most likely what's happening. This is pure guesswork, but maybe it's because of the VC-64s that the cancelling only occurs when you play back from the beginning. The effect is not stable, but variates, and when you play from the beginning the variations match in that particular point to create a cancellation (??????).

    SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre  -  Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc.
    The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
    #5
    dscoyne
    Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 121
    • Joined: 2006/10/05 22:48:38
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts from multiple cloned vocal tracks 2011/06/14 11:44:30 (permalink)
    Thanks for all the good feedback.  Phase cancellation indeed makes sense as the correct diagnosis.  Maybe the waves take a while to get set up in order to cause it in this case.

    I seem to have eliminated the problem by reducing the vocal tracks to 3, and changing one of the presets.  Takes a while to do the trial and error since it's necessary to start from the beginning with each tested variation.

    "Not so skilled singer" would certainly describe me, and this method was my "invention."  Nice to know it's got a name!  I'll have to work on the routine described by Josh and see if I can get the tracks in timing sync (on another song).

    I am not trying to put together an artist recording, just a demo that I can play to get feedback on the song before probably opting for a pro demo.  I'm a songwriter only, and am able to get critiques at a couple of local workshops that we have in the Los Angeles area.

    Thanks again.........Don
    #6
    bitflipper
    01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
    • Total Posts : 26036
    • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
    • Location: Everett, WA USA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts from multiple cloned vocal tracks 2011/06/14 13:37:52 (permalink)
    Try adding a chorus plugin to one or both of the clones. This will introduce varying delays that may reduce the audibility of cancellations.

    Here's another classic trick: shift the pitch of one clone downward slightly, the other upward slightly, then nudge one clone forward a few milliseconds, the other forward by a few milliseconds more. The effect is, IMO, a little tired and overused, but then I feel the same way about Cherotune.

    BTW, you may ultimately be wasting your time with this approach. Sorry, that's the facts. If you want to fatten your vocal, sing it twice. That's true double-tracking and there are no shortcuts. And it really works - hey, it worked for Ringo so it'll work for anybody.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

    My Stuff
    #7
    JoshWolfer
    Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 372
    • Joined: 2011/05/22 03:55:26
    • Location: California, USA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts from multiple cloned vocal tracks 2011/06/14 16:23:28 (permalink)
    I'll have to work on the routine described by Josh and see if I can get the tracks in timing sync (on another song). 
       
    Key pad nudges are your friend. I turn on mouse targeting ('x' key) and have manually set my keypad nudge 1 to something very small like 10ms.  I splice get the timing perfect on the main vocal and then splice up the filler vocals (alt+click on x1 makes it nice and easy) and then nudge them in reference to the main vocal. 

    It takes getting use to, but I've gotten to the point where I can zoom in and visually nudge and be 99% perfect just by looking at it. The main thing to make sure is that you don't want to make it so they all start at the EXACT same point. You want it to be tight, but still be a thick double. 

    Not the most fun part of being a producer / engineer, but the final product rocks. You'd be surprised at how much timing you can fix even though you're not a great singer. 

    But as all things, really practice on your vocal accuracy and timing. It makes engineers happy =).

    Cheers


    Josh Wolfer - Big Dumb Monkey Productions - www.bigdumbmonkey.com (Twitter @bigdumbmonkeyp)
    Sonar 8.5.3 / X1b :: 2.8 Ghz core i7 :: 8GB ram :: V-Studio 700 C+R :: Maudio Profire 2626 (ADAT lightpipe into Vstudio)

    #8
    Jump to:
    © 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1