konradh
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MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
I was having the following odd problem: A MIDI instrument (external or Virtual Instrument) would suddenly no longer play back when I started (or restarted) a song. Even stranger, clicking on the MIDI notes in the Staff view would make no sound. The fact that VIs stopped responding ruled out the MIDI interface. The fact that clicking on notes made no sound seemed to rule out the MIDI buffer as an issue (though this is not 100% certain). The fact that this happens with various instruments (HW and VI) rules out a single instrument failing to release notes and consequently running out of voices. Solution is unknown but the work-around is simple: Stop the track and click on the Panic button (the thing that looks like a MIDI plug—located in the time and tempo box on the Control Bar). This issues All Notes Off and Reset All Controllers messages. I don't know what the problem is or why this works, but it does. Note that I increased my MIDI buffer from 250ms to 700ms. The problem occurs at both settings. Tonight I am installing an additional 6GB of memory (going for 6 to 12 on a 64-bit machine). I doubt this is related but it can't hurt and I use 8-12 VIs on an average track, plus audio plug-ins. I'd still like to know what is causing this. This did not happen when I ran on a very much smaller PC on an older version of Sonar.
post edited by konradh - 2011/06/18 17:58:00
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sykodelic
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/18 18:15:48
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sorry to hear you haven't figured this one out yet. What are the specs of your machine? Did you ever run the DPC latency checker? If so what kind of results did you get...
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konradh
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/19 00:11:57
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I have bookmarked the latency checker and will run it later, thanks! I have just been heads down on a project. The workaround makes this a very minor problem, so I think I am OK for now. My specs are: Creation station built by Sweetwater: Intel i7 950 @ 3.07GHz 12 GB Memory 64-bit OS Windows 7 Roland V-Studio 700 (Console and I/O) VIs (in addition to what comes with X1 Producer): MusicLab RealGuitar 2 Musiclab RealStrat Vienna Symphonic Special Edition and Special Edition Plus Ivory II Grand Pianos EastWest Fab Four (more useful than you would think) Big Fish Acoustic Legends HD Fantom VS (built into the Roland V-Studio) External Stuff (not counting old gear that isn't plugged in): Yamaha Tyros 2 (with hard drive and memory upgrades) Kurzweil PC2R (with Orchestra and polyphony cards) Roland JV-1080 with four expansion cards (Orch I, Orch II, Pop, Bass and Drums) M-Audio Key Rig 49 controller Presonus Eureka Channel Strip (Mic Pre + Compressor + EQ) TC Helicon VoiceWorks Plus M-Audio MIDISport 4x4 MIDI Interface Line 6 Pod 2.0 Favorite mics: Rode NT2-A and ElectroVoice RE-20 Near field monitors: KRK Rokit 6s and Alesis Studio Ones I also have a Roland VS-1680 connected via digital coax because I am pulling some old tracks into Sonar X1.
post edited by konradh - 2011/06/19 00:19:49
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sykodelic
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/19 00:32:22
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nice setup. yeah run that checker when you get time it's very quick and leaves no footprint on your system.. I have also spent a good deal of time figuring out how to get dpc latency down so if your numbers are up I can help you get them inline. I imagine the creation station will be ok but no harm in checking it out....
Happy recording!!!!
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carlosagm79
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/19 12:16:48
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beware of strange/ghost MIDI controller data, also freeze some track for resources
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eikelbijter
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/19 16:24:44
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Sounds like you have something sending a CC7 at 0 effectively turning off every softsynth...
R
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konradh
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/19 22:39:49
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The things that are odd about this: 1-It is different instruments at different times, even during the same session in the same project and 2-It is not limited to a specific project. These two things kind of rule out a random controller message (I think).
For example, SI bass may quit. Later, it may be RealGuitar or an external MIDI module. It really does seem to be a MIDI log jam--but I have the buffer set high.
Anyway, since the Panic button fixes it, it is no longer a big deal. I hope that some day I know the root cause, but I am no longer worried about it--annoying but not a major issue. I will submit a ticket to Cakewalk and see what they come up with.
Thanks for all the thoughts.
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eikelbijter
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/20 15:16:10
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konradh
The things that are odd about this: 1-It is different instruments at different times, even during the same session in the same project and 2-It is not limited to a specific project. These two things kind of rule out a random controller message (I think).
For example, SI bass may quit. Later, it may be RealGuitar or an external MIDI module. It really does seem to be a MIDI log jam--but I have the buffer set high.
Anyway, since the Panic button fixes it, it is no longer a big deal. I hope that some day I know the root cause, but I am no longer worried about it--annoying but not a major issue. I will submit a ticket to Cakewalk and see what they come up with.
Thanks for all the thoughts.
That doesn't rule it out at all! What I meant was for instance an external USB keyboard or control surface, sending CC7 to whatever MIDI track is input-monitored... believe me, it's happened to me! R
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cliffr
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/20 19:16:19
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eikelbijter
konradh
The things that are odd about this: 1-It is different instruments at different times, even during the same session in the same project and 2-It is not limited to a specific project. These two things kind of rule out a random controller message (I think).
For example, SI bass may quit. Later, it may be RealGuitar or an external MIDI module. It really does seem to be a MIDI log jam--but I have the buffer set high.
Anyway, since the Panic button fixes it, it is no longer a big deal. I hope that some day I know the root cause, but I am no longer worried about it--annoying but not a major issue. I will submit a ticket to Cakewalk and see what they come up with.
Thanks for all the thoughts.
That doesn't rule it out at all! What I meant was for instance an external USB keyboard or control surface, sending CC7 to whatever MIDI track is input-monitored... believe me, it's happened to me!
R
A MIDI instrument (external or Virtual Instrument) would suddenly no longer play back when I started (or restarted) a song. Even stranger, clicking on the MIDI notes in the Staff view would make no sound. The fact that VIs stopped responding ruled out the MIDI interface. The fact that clicking on notes made no sound seemed to rule out the MIDI buffer as an issue (though this is not 100% certain). The fact that this happens with various instruments (HW and VI) rules out a single instrument failing to release notes and consequently running out of voices. If it's a MIDI CC 7 or 11 causing this, it should be pretty easy to diagnose / prove. When one of your VST instruments stops making sound, instead of doing a blind panic buton reset, try sending the obvious CCs to it (CC 7 / CC11) in turn and see if one of them brings it back. CC #7 = Midi Channel Volume CC #11 = Expression. Similar to volume on some synths this will silence it when turned right down (val = 0) CC #121 = Reset all controllers You can easily draw in a CC using the PRV when the problem occurrs, and play it back to see if it comes back. It may also be worth checking for CC data in the "Event List" - note that the event list display seems a bit buggy. For display in the event list I usually select controllers, deselect notes, and sometimes have to do a 2nd deselect/reselect controllers before they show in the list. Midi-OX ( http://www.midiox.com/) might also be useful for diagnosing this - haven't used it in a long time but IIRC you can monitor/log any midi channel with midiox, so when it goes 'bump' you can see what was sent. Cheers - Cliff
i7-950 24 GB, GTX 580, W7/64 Ultimate, Sonar Platinum, Alesis MasterControl, KRK Rokit RP8g2s Some Real piano, basses, and guitars, Komplete 8Ultimate, Ibanez guitars, MusicLab RG/Strat/LPC, Trilian, Omnisphere, RMX, EWQL SO Platinum, Pianos, Choirs, VOP, Gypsy, Goliath, SD2, MOR, Ra, HS, HB, too many plugs, Midi controllers, and all kinds of weird gadgets My Soundclick Page
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konradh
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/20 19:26:34
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Thanks, Cliff--we'll see what happens.
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sykodelic
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/20 19:57:13
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cliff that software sounds interesting have to check it out
post edited by sykodelic - 2011/06/20 19:58:46
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lorneyb2
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/20 20:12:58
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A possibility due to the random nature of it may be that if you have the universal echo on in the control bar (next to M S R(ecord) ))))) that what ever track(s) is/are in focus will be getting input from your controller so if the volume or expression pedal are set to 0 it will be setting to that value. Try turning it off if it is on to see if that helps.
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konradh
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/20 22:58:00
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Huh...that echo thing is also interesting, lorneyb. I DO have that turned on. I was having trouble getting the controller to play the selected track (track ini focus) and not others, so I turned echo off on everything and then selected Always Echo Current Track in MIDI Preferences. I do see the blue echo light on in the control bar. (Note: I always have to have echo on for audio tracks that are inputs for external synths.)
You guys have given me some interesting stuff to check.
Sweetwater also wants me to test some things to narrow down whether it is a hardware/MIDI interface issue or a software issue. I have tended to rule out the HW factor, but who knows? It could be causing some weirdness.
One thing I have noted: this usually happens after starting and stopping the track a few times while editing and arranging.
This is one of the few times a bug is more interesting than it is irritating since it is not affecting my productivity significantly.
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eikelbijter
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/21 16:13:22
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So, disconnect all USB and MIDI controllers, and see what happens! Easy test really...
R
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bz2838
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/21 17:39:53
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You should run a latency check program, you may have some corrupt drivers, if your drivers are not the culprit, maybe you should check your system bios, sometimes it can get corrputed. Either of these problems can cause audio dropouts.
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eikelbijter
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/21 17:45:53
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bz2838
You should run a latency check program, you may have some corrupt drivers, if your drivers are not the culprit, maybe you should check your system bios, sometimes it can get corrputed. Either of these problems can cause audio dropouts.
Did you even read the thread? R
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sykodelic
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/21 18:17:55
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Did you even read the thread?
Considering I already mentioned that twice I'm gonna guess he did not....
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bz2838
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/22 12:37:02
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eikelbijter
bz2838
You should run a latency check program, you may have some corrupt drivers, if your drivers are not the culprit, maybe you should check your system bios, sometimes it can get corrputed. Either of these problems can cause audio dropouts.
Did you even read the thread?
R
Did you? I did not see system bios mentioned anywhere on the thread
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eikelbijter
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/23 22:53:46
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His BIOS has nothing to do with this. He wasn't having problems with audio playback or dropouts or stuttering or anything like that. As evidenced by his silence, I would just about put money on the fact that it was one of his controllers sending Volume 0, CC7 or something like that...
R
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konradh
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/24 10:27:15
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The odd thing is that the Cakewalk Knowledge Base article linked below seems to speak to exactly what we are talking about--but their solution of changing the MIDI buffer made no difference for me. http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/kb/reader.aspx/2007013236 At first, I did not think the CC7 idea was it, but now I am starting to think there may be something there. I don't know how a controller message could get sent to different instruments at different times and happen on different projects, but I am investigating. The problem occurs when I stop and start projects often as I am arranging, so it could be something about controller resets. NOTE: I always put a Controller 121 message at the start of every track followed by the pan and volume settings I want. Sonar should search back and find these messages, but something could be whacky there. There is a new thread today called Intermittent MIDI Playback delay  that seems to be related since I have both MIDI delay and no sound issues--both fixed by the panic button.
post edited by konradh - 2011/06/24 10:29:02
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bz2838
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/24 11:12:01
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bz2838
eikelbijter
bz2838
You should run a latency check program, you may have some corrupt drivers, if your drivers are not the culprit, maybe you should check your system bios, sometimes it can get corrputed. Either of these problems can cause audio dropouts.
Did you even read the thread?
R
Did you? I did not see system bios mentioned anywhere on the thread
I was having the following odd problem: A MIDI instrument (external or Virtual Instrument) would suddenly no longer play back when I started (or restarted) a song. Even stranger, clicking on the MIDI notes in the Staff view would make no sound. The fact that VIs stopped responding ruled out the MIDI interface. The fact that clicking on notes made no sound seemed to rule out the MIDI buffer as an issue (though this is not 100% certain). The fact that this happens with various instruments (HW and VI) rules out a single instrument failing to release notes and consequently running out of voices. I had this same problem, my bios settings got corrupted, I changed the settings, problem went away, I am not an expert, I only know what works for me
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jbow
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/24 12:27:24
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I had this same problem, my bios settings got corrupted, I changed the settings, problem went away, I am not an expert, I only know what works for me For future reference, how do you check to see if your bios is corrupted and how do you fix it. is there a link to a site where this sort of thing is commonly dealt with or is it something simple? I have had to update bios before but I don't remember why or how, it was several years ago. J
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bz2838
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/24 13:41:24
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jbow
I had this same problem, my bios settings got corrupted, I changed the settings, problem went away, I am not an expert, I only know what works for me
For future reference, how do you check to see if your bios is corrupted and how do you fix it. is there a link to a site where this sort of thing is commonly dealt with or is it something simple? I have had to update bios before but I don't remember why or how, it was several years ago.
J
Open System Information by clicking the Start button  . In the search box, type System Information, and then, in the list of results, click System Information. Click System Summary in the left pane, and then look under BIOS Version/Date in the right pane to view the BIOS manufacturer, version number, and the date the BIOS was released. For specific information about the BIOS used by your computer, check the information that came with your computer or go to the computer manufacturer's website.  How do I update BIOS? Procedures vary depending on the BIOS manufacturer. If you think you need to update your BIOS, check the information that came with your computer or go to the computer manufacturer's website.  Warning - Be careful when changing BIOS settings. The BIOS interface is designed for advanced users, and it's possible to change a setting that could prevent your computer from starting correctly.
- Updating BIOS should only be done if necessary (to solve a compatibility problem, for example). It can be a complicated process, and if an error occurs, your computer could be rendered inoperable. Be sure to follow the manufacturer's instructions exactly.
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lorneyb2
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/24 17:03:53
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Konradh, another thing you could check is on is in the synth rack click on the "Show/hide assigned controls" on the right side so you can see the row of assigned controls under the synth name. There are some plugins that automatically assign controls. I have run in to some mystery behaviours and that has been the culprit. I have had it happen where a plugin is in focus and moved a slider or knob on my controller and it has altered one of the settings there.
I just had an episode with my EW pianos. As soon as I hit play the volume slider would drop to 1/2 way down the slider on the GUI with no CC or envelope to correspond with what was happening. I expanded the "Show/hide assigned controls" and there were 2 assigned controls, 1 being volume and it was at 1/2.
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konradh
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/06/25 11:24:35
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Thanks, lorneyb. Will check it out. I know Kontakt player can be weird if you don't know the secrets to setting up the volume slider.
The thing I keep going back to, though, is that sometimes there will be lag (delay), sometimes the MIDI instruments (internal or external) will stop playing, and sometimes when clicking on notes in the staff view, I get sound intermittently (like 5 notes will play and then one won't, but never a repeatable pattern). This keeps pushing me back towards a buffer issue, but changing buffer size does not help. A real mystery.
At any rate, I have a work-around and will post a solution if and when we finally chase it down.
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eikelbijter
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/07/07 13:55:30
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So, did you ever figure it out?
R
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konradh
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/07/07 22:25:33
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I do not have a definitive answer. Setting the MIDI buffer up to 700 ms seems to reduce the frequency of the problem, but it is so erratic, that I have not chased down the root cause yet.
USUALLY, the panic button fixes the problem; but last week i had to reboot Sonar.
Since this problem shows up sometimes and lag and sometimes as no MIDI response, I am thinking it is buffer-related, but there must be other factors.
Current theory: stopping and starting Sonar does not clear the MIDI buffer due to a bug.
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cliffr
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/07/14 22:22:58
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Hi again,
just to let you know, I had an occurrance of the "mysterious silence" falling upon a bunch of my instruments.
I believe the issue in my particular instance is related to some the fact that I've just done a bunch of updates
(quite a heap - Play-3, Kontakt-4, Battery 3, and a bunch of other NI stuff) and haven't sorted out the funnies
that happen with Novation Automap.
With some VSTs, if you have both 32 and 64 bit versions of VSTs, there are some glitches that can cause quite some
havoc if you "automap" both versions - even though 32 bit VSTs aren't scanned by the 64 bit Sonar and visa-versa.
That's another long story, and caused only be certain plugins and automap - not Sonar - Sonar is just the victim :-)
As soon as it happened (4 VSTs fell silent) I saved it as a project.
I wasn't actually working on a project - I was smashing things in random test mode, looking for any new problems
after doing all my updates :-)
Anyway - 4 VSTs fell silent, so I saved it as a project so I could return to it's seemingly broken state for more tests.
I checked playing on one of the VSTs own 'synth keyboards' - No Sound, No Output from the instrument !.
I immediately thought aha - midi volume - CC7, or CC11.
I sent a midi CC7 and retried - no dice, still silent.
I sent a midi CC11 and viola, Audio output coming from the VST.
Of note is the fact that the actual VST does not output any sound, as can be seen in the output meter of the instrument.
If the instrument won't sound by playing on it's own built in keyboard, it generally means something has most likely turned
it's output off (Mute / Volume / Expression).
In my case, it looks like a CC11 killed the volume on all these instruments.
And I believe it is to do with Novation Automap and some wrapping kinks I need to sort through.
It wouldn't surprise me if it's a CC7 or CC11 being zapped in from somewhere that's causing similar problems
for other people too.
I'd recommend next time it happens to you, just try sending CC7 first, and if that doesn't work follow with CC11
to an instrument that's gone silent.
That will confirm one way or another whether it's the instruments obeying a "silence" command or not.
Cheers - Cliff
i7-950 24 GB, GTX 580, W7/64 Ultimate, Sonar Platinum, Alesis MasterControl, KRK Rokit RP8g2s Some Real piano, basses, and guitars, Komplete 8Ultimate, Ibanez guitars, MusicLab RG/Strat/LPC, Trilian, Omnisphere, RMX, EWQL SO Platinum, Pianos, Choirs, VOP, Gypsy, Goliath, SD2, MOR, Ra, HS, HB, too many plugs, Midi controllers, and all kinds of weird gadgets My Soundclick Page
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konradh
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Re:MIDI and VIs Dying: Work-Around
2011/07/15 10:30:44
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Thanks, Cliff. Thoughts on where the random CC message is coming from or why it hits different intruments at different times?
I wonder if Sonar somehow goofed up the "Search Controllers Before Playback" or the "Zero Controllers When Playback Stops" functions (the second being more likely).
I usually have search back ON and zero controllers OFF, but maybe something in that area is broken and being triggered by certain paths in the application.
I usually get this problem when i have stopped and started a lot during arranging.
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