bitflipper
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/01 10:40:09
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Ya know, I'm just going to have to listen to this Lady Gaga everyone's talking about. To date I've not heard a single tune nor seen a performance.
It's not that I'm a musical snob...OK, maybe just a little ...but it's more a case of my radar automatically filtering out manufactured pop acts as irrelevant background noise.
It's not that I'm a prude, either. I have always liked female flesh and spent way too much of my youth pursuing it. But semi-nude babes trigger the radar filter, on the presumption that the use of sex to sell the product indicates lack of value and substance in the product itself. Same with any faddish, trendy imagery. How good can the act be musically when it relies on such a cheap hard sell?
Well, I've been wrong about such presumptions in the past. I once dismissed Beyonce as a stripper act. Then I saw her play Etta James in Cadillac Records (great flick, btw) and decided she was the real deal. I once chuckled at Pink's pink hair and punk attitude, wrote it off as me-too marketing, and only realized later that she's a great talent, too. Ditto for Avril Levigne and Christine Aquilera.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/01 10:48:14
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I suggest you search out videos of her stage performances... the ones where you can see that she is really singing and playing the piano.
She'll probably end up on the list you just wrote out.
best regards,
mike
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timidi
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/01 11:11:22
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batsbrew
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/01 11:12:00
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Zuma
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/01 11:50:50
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I have nothing against her. I just don't see or hear anything special about her. And the arguments that she can actually play and sing always seem a little funny to me. The Police could play and sing too... and so could other pop bands of the 80's like The Fixx, Heart, Journey, Aimme Mann, Blondie, etc. Every one of those pop acts IMO had and displayed both talent and far more interesting music. I think theres so much bland, uncreative crap available right now that an artist such as Gaga can easily stand out as being a notch above the status quo. Nothing wrong with her but IMO there's nothing special about her either.
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batsbrew
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/01 14:23:51
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HER MILLIONS OF FANS WOULD ARGUE OTHERWISE! 
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ba_midi
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/01 16:09:18
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jamesyoyo
With all due respect, while she is shamelessly derivative, Gaga did write some catchy-ass tunes. That being said, I downloaded her current flop album for $.99 the day it was released. Neither my 11 nor 8-year old has bothered to listen to it, both of whom absolutely loved her last album.
If you get caught in the current, it can make for some easy swimming, but you are at its mercy as well. LG is learning that now.
I happen to feel the same way-- but I suspect LG is not learning anything right now. She's 'swimming' in her own success at the moment. I must add that when she does too much of the "piano and voice" thing that she's been doing lately is when one realizes she might be a great "recording" talent but has some work to do in the performance area (meaning strictly singing/playing vs putting on a show). I'm not crazy about her latest like you, and I loved her last like you. BTW -- BIT: Steely Dan performing at the Beacon Theatre here in NYC (2 blocks from me) in Sept. Woo!
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ba_midi
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/01 16:14:18
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bitflipper
Ya know, I'm just going to have to listen to this Lady Gaga everyone's talking about. To date I've not heard a single tune nor seen a performance.
It's not that I'm a musical snob...OK, maybe just a little ...but it's more a case of my radar automatically filtering out manufactured pop acts as irrelevant background noise.
It's not that I'm a prude, either. I have always liked female flesh and spent way too much of my youth pursuing it. But semi-nude babes trigger the radar filter, on the presumption that the use of sex to sell the product indicates lack of value and substance in the product itself. Same with any faddish, trendy imagery. How good can the act be musically when it relies on such a cheap hard sell?
Well, I've been wrong about such presumptions in the past. I once dismissed Beyonce as a stripper act. Then I saw her play Etta James in Cadillac Records (great flick, btw) and decided she was the real deal. I once chuckled at Pink's pink hair and punk attitude, wrote it off as me-too marketing, and only realized later that she's a great talent, too. Ditto for Avril Levigne and Christine Aquilera.
I think everyone has had similar experiences with artists -- depending at what stage one hears/sees them. I also had that feeling you did about Beyonce at some point and have watched her grow into an amazing performer. But in this record biz environment, and media-saturation environment even the greats seem to have big ebbs and flows. Christine is one example. Her last album almost sounded like she was trying to play catchup to the other "up and coming" girl artists. It seemed a bit forced to me, and the production value wasn't quite up to par with her previous albums, imho. The competition is fierce out there. And, females rule the market right now (pop that is). But there isn't a HUGE variance in style, so they really have to do some intense cat-fighting out there.
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bitflipper
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/01 21:29:44
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Good to see you back in the old neighborhood, Billy!  Speaking of Christine, she now admits to using AutoTune, "tastefully".
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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ba_midi
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/01 21:38:38
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bitflipper
Good to see you back in the old neighborhood, Billy!
Speaking of Christine, she now admits to using AutoTune, "tastefully".
She's always tasty, er, tasteful I bet :) Thanks Bit. I'm not sure how long I'll be back for. It's kind of been really peaceful not to get too involved in any forum for these last few months. Less bickering; less polarization. It's easy to forget just how adversarial us humans are when one stays away from forums ;) But, I must admit - I do miss some of the fine people on this forum, such as yourself. So I guess we'll see how things go. Being a holiday weekend I figured I'd dive in a little since I don't have any serious work to worry about for a few days. It's always nice to see/read you Bit :)
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Zuma
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/01 21:41:39
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ba_midi
The competition is fierce out there. And, females rule the market right now (pop that is). But there isn't a HUGE variance in style, so they really have to do some intense cat-fighting out there.
This is precisely what is depressing to me. It's become less and less about art. It's not just in music either. Art as a means, or vehicle to expand consciousness is little more than a novelty nowadays... an afterthought at the very least. I find that sad. I'm not moved by anything I've heard in the last few years. i know there's some good stuff out there but it's no longer a dominating theme or pursuit. And with all due respect to Gaga and her fans, if you could put her music in a time machine, I don't think it would stand out so much as it does in the present scene. And maybe the same could said about pop acts from the past. would they have faired so well today? Strange times... or maybe I'm just getting old, lol.
post edited by Zuma - 2011/07/01 21:45:59
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ba_midi
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/01 21:49:23
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Zuma
ba_midi
The competition is fierce out there. And, females rule the market right now (pop that is). But there isn't a HUGE variance in style, so they really have to do some intense cat-fighting out there.
This is precisely what is depressing to me. It's become less and less about art. It's not just in music either. Art as a means, or vehicle to expand consciousness is little more than a novelty nowadays... an afterthought at the very least. I find that sad. I'm not moved by anything I've heard in the last few years. i know there's some good stuff out there but it's no longer a dominating theme or pursuit.
Different strokes for different folks, as they say. I actually like a lot of modern music. David Guetta, Kaskade, Lady Gaga, Black Eyed Peas, Pink, Justin Bieber, Kate Perry, Ke$ha -- I could go on. I guess I just like modern music in general. There definitely are artists that do NOT move me or I find less than musical, etc. But overall I think there's some good stuff going on. Certainly some of the productions are interesting, with lots of new tools available to producers. But, I think throughout history there has always been a skewed weighting toward the mediocre and mundane. There's that old saying "No one ever lost a dime underestimating the taste of the [American] public" ;) (Fill in the world if you prefer). There have only ever been just so many 'greats' or 'exceptional' artists at any one time in history. I could rattle of a few in our time, imho: Aretha Franklin, Patty La Belle come to mind quickly. There are more imho. But it's still a handful compared to the vast amount of artists "out there". So I guess each person has to find their own comfort zone with music based on what's available at any given time. The beauty of recorded music is that no one has to listen to things they don't like and can choose to listen only to those they do ;)
post edited by ba_midi - 2011/07/01 21:50:28
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ba_midi
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/01 22:10:29
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BTW, speaking of great recordings ... Abbey Road Studios is 80 years old now. Wow.
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Zuma
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/01 22:16:58
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Oh there will always be good music. And there was probably just as much crap back then as there is now... but I don't think anyone can argue or ignore the fact that art in general no longer enjoys the prominence it once did. I think society in general is far more concerned with immediate ego gratification now than examining it's collective psyche or expanding awareness. Not a right or wrong thing imo, it just is what it is. but I also think it's a bit of fad and like all things else, we'll grow weary of it at some point and turn back inward to explore and reside in the spirit once again.
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ba_midi
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/01 22:27:06
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Zuma
Oh there will always be good music. And there was probably just as much crap back then as there is now... but I don't think anyone can argue or ignore the fact that art in general no longer enjoys the prominence it once did. I think society in general is far more concerned with immediate ego gratification now than examining it's collective psyche or expanding awareness. Not a right or wrong thing imo, it just is what it is. but I also think it's a bit of fad and like all things else, we'll grow weary of it at some point and turn back inward to explore and reside in the spirit once again.
I would easily agree that the world progressively gets more commercial by the moment -- and that somewhat dictates there will be a lack or "art" for art's sake, so to speak. I could also easily go off on the ills of the world, as we all could -- but I don't think music is in quite that bad shape. I actually think there's an abundance of choice, diversity, creativity, and more. You had said earlier that "maybe I'm just getting old." Well, I think therein lies some answers. Our "groove" changes (meaning our inner groove, if you will). There was a period of time when I was very depressed years ago and was going through some bad life stuff. I didn't go out much. I didn't listen to or make music much. I basically tuned out of the world for awhile. My groove went out the window too. It took a while to get back into a groove -- any groove. My point being, if you're not in touch with the energies/vibes going on in the world, it's easy to say "maybe I'm just getting old." But that's a choice to some degree. If a human is healthy, age would not dictate the ability to relate to something. Attitude might. If what one sees in the world is mostly negative or disturbing (like watching the news all day), one might not feel the "party" groove, for example. But, we all have to dance to our own groove. So if yours doesn't find anything in modern music that speaks to you -- so be it. There's nothing wrong with having that choice. I just submit you might be missing out on some fun music ;)
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Zuma
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/01 23:29:08
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What I was getting at was, it's just a natural trend of self discovery that will exhaust itself eventually and we'll be off in a new direction. We're already seeing signs of it now. There's no point in judging it or getting caught up in right wrong, which is purely perception. I am indeed weary of the rampant corporate greed eating away at this country but i am in no way fatalistic in my approach to life. Quite the opposite really... I'm just waiting for society to tire of it and turn back inward. Less money! More art! :)
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ba_midi
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/02 00:03:48
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Zuma
What I was getting at was, it's just a natural trend of self discovery that will exhaust itself eventually and we'll be off in a new direction. We're already seeing signs of it now. There's no point in judging it or getting caught up in right wrong, which is purely perception. I am indeed weary of the rampant corporate greed eating away at this country but i am in no way fatalistic in my approach to life. Quite the opposite really... I'm just waiting for society to tire of it and turn back inward. Less money! More art! :)
I agree there generally are 'cycles' ... but with the modern day "media" in total control of human thought (grin), those cycles are somewhat inhibited I think ;)
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Zuma
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/02 00:30:55
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ba_midi
Zuma
What I was getting at was, it's just a natural trend of self discovery that will exhaust itself eventually and we'll be off in a new direction. We're already seeing signs of it now. There's no point in judging it or getting caught up in right wrong, which is purely perception. I am indeed weary of the rampant corporate greed eating away at this country but i am in no way fatalistic in my approach to life. Quite the opposite really... I'm just waiting for society to tire of it and turn back inward. Less money! More art! :)
I agree there generally are 'cycles' ... but with the modern day "media" in total control of human thought (grin), those cycles are somewhat inhibited I think ;)
Well, I had a rousing conversation about this with a friend on another forum. While I agree with you on the media as a tool for thought control by a conglomerate of rich powerful old men, I am also a big believer in accepting personally responsibility not just for ones actions but for one's thoughts and beliefs. It would be easy for me to start chastising the sheep for being sheep when there's enough information available to them that they're being fed sh*t... but I made a promise to myself I would stop doing that. But it is frustrating it always takes a disaster of some kind to wake the sleep walkers among us. It's like when you were kid at Christmas and you would be up at 3 or 4 AM, just absolutely desperate for your parents to wake up so you could have at it, lol. But back to Gaga. In my opinion I think it is much easier for her to stand out among the crowd in the present pop scene than it would've been for her to stand out in the pop scene of the 80's. That's not a knock on her either.
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bitflipper
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/02 10:10:04
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OK, so if it's all about control and manipulation by heartless corporations, how do you explain Johnny Rotten? Can't play an instrument, can't sing, can't write a song as complex as a nursery rhyme. Has admitted to being dumbfounded by his success. Surely the public itself is at least a co-conspirator.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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ba_midi
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/02 10:23:48
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But back to Gaga. In my opinion I think it is much easier for her to stand out among the crowd in the present pop scene than it would've been for her to stand out in the pop scene of the 80's. That's not a knock on her either. My only 'concern' for Gaga is that she's beginning to take herself a little too seriously. If you watched any of her "On The Edge" performances, sometimes I actually cringe a bit. I don't think she's at the point to do that kind of solo voice/piano thing with such a dramatic approach to what is essentially a pop song and pull it off (other than to her tweenie fans of course). It just seems a bit pretentious at this stage of her career (and based on the actual performance). I think she stands out mostly because she's the Elton John of the female pop world and -- I think most would agree -- performing in underwear is catchy lol I like her records (the ones that have more than just her and a piano) and tunes. I think she IS talented. But Steely Dan got famous of brilliant songs, recordings, and performances. They didn't need ANY gimmicks. Interesting contract I'd say.
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ba_midi
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/02 10:27:25
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bitflipper
OK, so if it's all about control and manipulation by heartless corporations, how do you explain Johnny Rotten? Can't play an instrument, can't sing, can't write a song as complex as a nursery rhyme. Has admitted to being dumbfounded by his success. Surely the public itself is at least a co-conspirator.
Hahaha I love that last line Bit. I'd say YUP, they are :) Someone said to me many years ago that you could analyze the Billboard Top 40 by "slots". His example at the time was that if Aretha Franklin has a hit in the top 40 the other female R&B artists would not. That may have been true back then, but now it's not (it's way more homogenized now as I said somewhere recently). But the point was that there could be anomalies. Oddities, if you will. So maybe that explains SOME of that?
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Zuma
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Re:20 Years Late Review: Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly"
2011/07/02 10:59:39
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bitflipper
OK, so if it's all about control and manipulation by heartless corporations, how do you explain Johnny Rotten? Can't play an instrument, can't sing, can't write a song as complex as a nursery rhyme. Has admitted to being dumbfounded by his success. Surely the public itself is at least a co-conspirator.
This is precisely what I meant by personal responsibility. Kinda like religion needing a devil to escape responsibilty for their own thoughts, deeds and emotions. And of course not every corporation is an evil empire, but I think you're smart and aware enough to know that more than a few certainly are and they hold sway over our government with pretty much untold unaccountability. They can do whatever they please now and not even bother to really hide it... the will of the people is no longer there to hold them accountable either. Big Oil is the cheif offender. But that's a forbidden subject which is why I got back to Gaga... ain't she lovely?
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