Kick and Bass guitar

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sharpdion23
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2011/06/30 12:37:32 (permalink)

Kick and Bass guitar

I have a song with a Kick and bass guitar and it doesn't sound great together. I want to know what other people do to this to make them sound good together.

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    batsbrew
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/06/30 13:02:36 (permalink)
    carve eq territory.

    figure out which one is high and low first....

    frequency wise.....


    then carve out frequency territories for each to sit in, without stepping on each other.

    you need some good monitors and headphones to be able to figure this out.


    visual tools can help as well......
    span is a good place to start:
    http://www.voxengo.com/product/span/

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/06/30 13:04:45 (permalink)
    Yeah. Ditto on what Bat said about EQ.

    Then I like to drop some Ozone on them too. Multiband compression seems to help too.

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    n0rd
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/06/30 13:31:09 (permalink)
    This is relevant. (And no, you don't need Pro-Q. Any EQ will do).
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    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/06/30 15:04:44 (permalink)
    Another thing to consider which has always helped me is, decide ahead of time if you want a boomy kick or a boomy bass. If you want a boomier kick, you go with a bass that has a bit more clack to it. If you want a kick with a bit more beater in it, you can use a bass guitar with a bit more boom to it. n0rd's video he shared is also what I do to carve everything up and make it all fit. Good luck!

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    sharpdion23
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/06/30 16:04:29 (permalink)
    batsbrew


    carve eq territory.

    figure out which one is high and low first....

    frequency wise.....


    then carve out frequency territories for each to sit in, without stepping on each other.

    you need some good monitors and headphones to be able to figure this out.


    visual tools can help as well......
    span is a good place to start:
    http://www.voxengo.com/product/span/

    So if I understand correctly, I have to see which of the two (Kick and bass guitar) has it's frequency higher than the other and so for example the bass is the higher frequency and so what ever the bass frequency is on I cut those frequency on the kick and vice versa? I have cakewalk MA-15d monitors.

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    batsbrew
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/06/30 16:16:21 (permalink)
    kinda, yeah.

    ballpark yeah.


    that link that NORD posted, is perfect for a tutorial

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    rockinrobby
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/06/30 19:02:52 (permalink)
    You can duck the bass a bit too w/a compressor driven by the output of the kick.

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    sharpdion23
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/06/30 19:48:14 (permalink)
    Ok i'll take a look at that link.

    I saw a video on ducking but i'm having problems with getting things routed because I have some tracks routed to other buses with fx to save cpu and so if someone can give me a video tut on that with several buses set up and different tracks routing to them.

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    rockinrobby
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/06/30 19:57:27 (permalink)
    yeah, my link is to my music, but ducking will definitely be a powerful tool... You need to use it sparingly so as not to achieve "a pumping effect" with the bass. 

    This one comes up on youtube when you type in "ducking" but there are some good ones on compressors too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5zELTa9Ris
    post edited by rockinrobby - 2011/06/30 20:02:35

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    IK Obi
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/06/30 21:36:59 (permalink)
    Some sidechain compression might help.    

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    sharpdion23
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/06/30 22:29:24 (permalink)
    Ok thanks.

    I will do these things and if there are any problems I will post back.

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    NW Smith
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/07/01 09:34:55 (permalink)
    I like to tune my kick drum to the key of the song.  It makes the bottom end sound tighter and more unified.  I am not sure if this is doable for your particular project - is your kick drum on a separate track?
    With Session Drummer and some other drum software, you can tune your drums. 

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    Middleman
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/07/01 12:09:01 (permalink)
    n0rd


    This is relevant. (And no, you don't need Pro-Q. Any EQ will do).


    Great video there. I usually just go for single track EQ and use my ears but the complimentory approach he outlines is a better approach.

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    sharpdion23
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/07/03 14:33:18 (permalink)
    bats,

    here is a picture where the bass guitar is on the left and the kick is on the right:

    Their frequency is pretty much on top of each other. Can you give me a tip on what to do here?


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    sharpdion23
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/07/03 14:47:50 (permalink)
    NW Smith


    I like to tune my kick drum to the key of the song.  It makes the bottom end sound tighter and more unified.  I am not sure if this is doable for your particular project - is your kick drum on a separate track?
    With Session Drummer and some other drum software, you can tune your drums. 

    I have SD3 Running my drums and I have all the drum heads seperated to their own tracks. I could see in my SD3 mixer view the tune knob, but my problem lies with finding the current pitch of my kick.
     
    I would also like to know how to bounce the kick only to audio. If I bounce my midi drum, all the drum heads get bounced  into an audio. I only want the kick to be bounced to audio.

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    tlw
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/07/03 20:47:28 (permalink)
    Looking at your screenshots, as a first step I'd be inclined to try a side-chained compressor on the bass and triggered by the kick, set with a fast attack then play around with the other settings until it sounds "right". Plus maybe play around with the kick's transients to increase the attack if the bass is a bit boomy. Maybe a slight eq on the kick to add a bit of mid as well - the higher frequencies usually contain a lot of the initial attack/"beater impact" noise. The PX-64 plugin can be very useful in these situations.
     
    For kick drum tuning, use your ears and trial and error. It may help to move it away from the bass/key of the song so it's theoretically a bit "out of tune" and stands out more.
     
    Finally, it may be worth trying a different SD kick drum (unless there are particular reasons for using that one). In fact that might be the easiest/quickest solution to the problem.

    I only want the kick to be bounced to audio.

     
    Off the top of my head, soloing the SD MIDI track and the audio track the kick drum is routed to then bouncing SD to audio should result in just the kick being bounced to audio. Failing that mute everything in SD's internal mixer but the kick drum. Then bounce.

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    Rbh
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/07/03 21:25:20 (permalink)
    If you don't mind my opinion-ating here. I would treat this as if you didn't have a choice of tuning it all up - or replacing samples - as if it was tracked as is and you have to deal with it from an audio engineers view. That is the best way to learn about eq carving in my opinion. I would suggest you start very simply at first and try to get what your after with just a simple HPF on the bass. The kick has a lot of high frequency material in it - which helps separate it from the low-mid heavy Bass. The major over lap that will confuse the two is the range below 70 HZ. That is where I start tuning the high Pass Filter on the bass - to allow the kick to carry the low and sub low end. A slight bell shaped cut on the kick in the 200 - 400 range will allow the bass to be dominant in this range. Small cuts and careful HPF tuning might give you everything you need - source dependent of course.
    post edited by Rbh - 2011/07/03 21:26:24

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    sharpdion23
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/07/03 21:40:13 (permalink)
    Ok thanks for the replies and opinions/advices. Please post if anyone has anything to add.

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    sharpdion23
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/07/03 22:03:31 (permalink)
    I hope I'm not dragging this thread too long and changing the original question too much.

    My next question is what do you do to make the kick stand out and has this good attack sound because right now it is blending in the music and can barely make it out even at higher volumes. What I hear is good when the kick is soloed, but when I play the whole project, the kick just doesnt stand out and it sounds like someonetapping the mic and a cardboard sound or something, not really the sound of a kick. Maybe I did something wrong in the eq.
    post edited by sharpdion23 - 2011/07/03 22:45:36

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    Danny Danzi
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/07/04 06:03:06 (permalink)
    sharpdion23


    I hope I'm not dragging this thread too long and changing the original question too much.

    My next question is what do you do to make the kick stand out and has this good attack sound because right now it is blending in the music and can barely make it out even at higher volumes. What I hear is good when the kick is soloed, but when I play the whole project, the kick just doesnt stand out and it sounds like someonetapping the mic and a cardboard sound or something, not really the sound of a kick. Maybe I did something wrong in the eq.

    1. Don't eq it while solo'd unless you feel there is a problem area. This is one of the biggest mistakes people make. They solo everything up and eq it to taste...then when they bring everything back in, it just doesn't sound good.
     
    2. The right compression should give you the punch you're looking for. Experiment with attack and release times until you get the punch you're looking for. If you hear the simulation of someone tapping on a mic, you probably have a bit too much beater attack, need some compression and you may even need to bring in some 400 hz or so to make it a little thicker. You also may be over-accentuating the lows in your bass guitar and may need more in your kick drum. Your best bet at this point would be to post an example of what you're getting now. Good luck.
     
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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/07/04 09:07:53 (permalink)
    Sometimes I'll solo the kick AND bass together just to get a feel for how well separated they are - but even then, they'll sometimes need a bit more adjustment when all the other instruments are playing

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    sharpdion23
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/07/04 15:56:24 (permalink)
    Ok thanks, I think I got what I was doing wrong, though correct me if i'm wrong here.

    I listened to some of the professional mixed and mastered songs and that it has a similar music genre and I found out that the kick is not really standing out or more like I couldn't really point it out in the music. I could still hear their kick but not as overpowering as I was hoping to get. Anyway I have alot of instruments in my project and still got the kick to stand out as much as I could like the professional mixed/mastered songs. It seems only Dance/Disco... songs have the kick pumping the music.

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    quantumeffect
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/07/06 20:06:58 (permalink)
    It would be nice to see the time on the x axis for the drum hit. (I am just guessing here) ... The two peaks may be associated with different components of the bass drum hit. The high frequency peak may reside predominantly in the initial attack and the lower energy region may comprise the decay or tone of the hit.

    1) Some other things you could try would be to have two copies of the bass drum track eq’ed very differently and possibly compressed very differently.

    2) Maybe do something a bit unconventional with the panning and move the bass drum and bass off of each other (assuming that you have them panned both dead center.)  Maybe move the bass drum 5% to the left and the bass 5% to the right.

    3) Try a multiband compressor.  If the lower energy peak (100 Hz) is associated with the tone and the higher energy peak (2K) is associated with the attack (just guess work) then you could try setting up the compressor so it operates on each peak separately.

    A suggested starting point for a multiband compressor for the 100 Hz peak … a low threshold and a low ratio with a long attack or in other words, let the impact of the beater pass and the gently compress everything to bring out the tone.
     
    And for the 2000 Hz peak … a high threshold with a high ratio and short attack or in other words, capture the impact of the beater and aggressively compress only the region at impact.

    4) Try one type of compressor on the bass drum track and another type of compressor on the buss.  I have been having really good success with the Sonitus compressor on the track and the PSP Old Timer on the buss.  I think the PSP Old Timer emulates an optical compressor and is quite colorful in a good sort of way (I paid $99 for it as an introductory offer).  I have been getting my drums to sit really nicely in my mixes (basement recordings / classic rock … only live instruments).
    post edited by quantumeffect - 2011/07/06 20:12:23

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    Philip
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/07/06 23:17:38 (permalink)
    quantumeffect


    It would be nice to see the time on the x axis for the drum hit. (I am just guessing here) ... The two peaks may be associated with different components of the bass drum hit. The high frequency peak may reside predominantly in the initial attack and the lower energy region may comprise the decay or tone of the hit.

    1) Some other things you could try would be to have two copies of the bass drum track eq’ed very differently and possibly compressed very differently.

    2) Maybe do something a bit unconventional with the panning and move the bass drum and bass off of each other (assuming that you have them panned both dead center.)  Maybe move the bass drum 5% to the left and the bass 5% to the right.

    3) Try a multiband compressor.  If the lower energy peak (100 Hz) is associated with the tone and the higher energy peak (2K) is associated with the attack (just guess work) then you could try setting up the compressor so it operates on each peak separately.

    A suggested starting point for a multiband compressor for the 100 Hz peak … a low threshold and a low ratio with a long attack or in other words, let the impact of the beater pass and the gently compress everything to bring out the tone.
     
    And for the 2000 Hz peak … a high threshold with a high ratio and short attack or in other words, capture the impact of the beater and aggressively compress only the region at impact.

    4) Try one type of compressor on the bass drum track and another type of compressor on the buss.  I have been having really good success with the Sonitus compressor on the track and the PSP Old Timer on the buss.  I think the PSP Old Timer emulates an optical compressor and is quite colorful in a good sort of way (I paid $99 for it as an introductory offer).  I have been getting my drums to sit really nicely in my mixes (basement recordings / classic rock … only live instruments).
    Quantum, I like the way you think/elaborate creatively, especially #1.  I don't know about panning either away from center though (#3).
     
    In addition:
     
    1) (For me) If the kick has a cooler transient-attack (almost always haha!), the kick takes priority over the mix and must majestically rule.  Honestly, a good hip-hop kick and sub-kick is worth inordinant time developing (for me).
     
    2) I almost always delay the bass attack by 10 or 20 msecs from the kick's (... to sit in the wake of the kick ... during its sustain/release).  It prevents clipping.  OTOH, others may not concur with this ... since the kick has a sweet after-shock.
     
    But per Danny ... as oftentimes the bass is more majestic for you/I ... and it's snap hooks ... no kick would be necessary then methinks.
     
    A compromize would be to lesson the amplitude of the bass-attacks (which of course depends on your section), or lesson that of the kick.
     
    3) Ducking makes no sense at all to me, as seems to destroy the bass attack.  Plus, I tried ducking/sidechaining and it was like trying to mix oil with vinegar.
    post edited by Philip - 2011/07/06 23:20:11

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    rockinrobby
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/07/06 23:43:42 (permalink)

    "3) Ducking makes no sense at all to me, as seems to destroy the bass attack.  Plus, I tried ducking/sidechaining and it was like trying to mix oil with vinegar. "




    Yes, as I said "You need to use it sparingly" if you use it.

    I haven't used it (much) but it is a tool in the belt. And under the right circumstances? I'm sure it's the right tool. 

    http://www.reverbnation.com/rockinrobby

    Evil lurks here among us again... "Beware."
    #26
    Philip
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    Re:Kick and Bass guitar 2011/07/09 15:54:31 (permalink)
    rockinrobby


    "3) Ducking makes no sense at all to me, as seems to destroy the bass attack.  Plus, I tried ducking/sidechaining and it was like trying to mix oil with vinegar. "




    Yes, as I said "You need to use it sparingly" if you use it.

    I haven't used it (much) but it is a tool in the belt. And under the right circumstances? I'm sure it's the right tool. 

    Thanks for catching that, Robby.  I'm glad you elaborated.  
     
    Today I could appreciate where ducking the bass-guitar sustain for funky kicks might benefit greatly: i.e., when the kick does counters amidst the bass guitar sustain (since most bass guitar sustains are oft quite long ... 1/2 bar etc.).
     
    In reality, the bass-guitar/kick world is an extremely challenging beast for me; I 'increasingly' appreciate fellow producers who help edify us in this pioneering challenge.  So many of my productions have shoddy bass-lines, I'm afraid.

    Philip  
    (Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

    Raised-Again 3http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12307501
    #27
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