Set the Trim (Gain) control before you start adjusting any master bus compression. Since I typically have only Ozone on the master bus I'm in the habit of using Ozone's own Input fader instead. It's the same result either way.

It's rare nowadays to come across plugins that distort when driven hot. If you hear distortion, it's most likely coming from your audio interface rather than anything inside the computer. And that won't happen as long as you keep the final output of the master bus out of the red.

Keeping the incoming level under control isn't just about avoiding clipping. It also assures that your limiter has enough breathing room to do its thing.

DeeringAmps


Dave,
So I'm taking from this that reds anywhere BUT the MASTER buss are OK; right?

Thanks

There are 2 main places where you need to be careful:

1. Whenever you leave Sonar, you want to be below 0dB, whether going out to your sound card (hence the Master bus), or if you're writing to a 16bit or 24bit file.

2. Plugins - keep in mind that plugins specifically designed to emulate analog devices may well emulate analog distortion when driven hard. But with those kind of plugins, it's not so much "what technical/measured level" as "what level sounds best". Also dynamics processors are level dependent by nature, so you need to send them an appropriate level (if they don't have their own input level or if the threshold can't be set high enough), or else you'll overcompress everything. And a few plugins will actually clip at 0dB.

Not trying to be contentious here, but this goes against everything I think I know about digital. What I think I'm taking away from this is that as long as the "overs" do not hit the DA converter I'm good? Ben are you sure the "warmth" you hear isn't just due to the signal getting louder? Make it louder or brighter; right? I know this is apples to oranges here but I'm sure the "warmth" that we think we hear in valve amps is caused when the circuit is pushed past the point of linear response (in general BEFORE clipping, its guitarists generally, not audiophiles, that enjoy the clipped signal). I think (and I could be wrong) that the "sound" of some "classic" analogue (assuming here that Ben is from Brittan and enjoys the "colour" added by classic analogue gear) desks is actually their non-linear defects. I've seen a video interview somewhere with one of the designers at SSL (I think I'm right) that the desk was terribly "flawed", phase issues, etc., but sounded "great". Again, I'm not trying to be contentious, but I just don't accept that digital overs are going to respond like saturated tape, or discrete analog components. That just flies in the face of what I "think" I know about digital. Fellas?

DeeringAmps

BenMMusTech

A couple of things though, the real benefit of 32 bit is mixing in the box, what 32 bit does is give us back our headroom, just like an anolouge mixing desk.  What this means is as long as the signal or the program audio does not touch the converters some digital overs, not always in the red is now acceptable.  Ok why is this good? as we know driving an anolouge mixing desk produces at times pleasing results, why this may not be the case with our DAW's the best part of a digital waveform is the actual very tip, so if we want to get the warmth of a recording we have to have a fairly hot signal (just have a listen to a bass or a drum kit with an 1176 plug and push that baby into the red, just and you will hear what I mean), we then use the trim tool to adjust the iput of each channel, this is the biggest fundemental thing that a lot of people don't understand you want the average level of each track to be relative and this means somtimes you will push the program audio into the red but as  I say this is not a bad thing anymore, no matter what anybody else is saying.

Not trying to be contentious here, but this goes against everything I think I know about digital.
What I think I'm taking away from this is that as long as the "overs" do not hit the DA converter I'm good?
Ben are you sure the "warmth" you hear isn't just due to the signal getting louder? Make it louder or brighter; right?
I know this is apples to oranges here but I'm sure the "warmth" that we think we hear in valve amps is caused when the circuit is pushed past the point of linear response (in general BEFORE clipping, its guitarists generally, not audiophiles, that enjoy the clipped signal).
I think (and I could be wrong) that the "sound" of some "classic" analogue (assuming here that Ben is from Brittan and enjoys the "colour" added by classic analogue gear) desks is actually their non-linear defects.
I've seen a video interview somewhere with one of the designers at SSL (I think I'm right) that the desk was terribly "flawed", phase issues, etc., but sounded "great".
Again, I'm not trying to be contentious, but I just don't accept that digital overs are going to respond like saturated tape, or discrete analog components.
That just flies in the face of what I "think" I know about digital.

Fellas?

No if you read my original statement I said driving the digital signal in the box WONT give you the same sound as driving a anolouge desk, its more to do with what is the most useable part of the recorded audio.  I have an article that Micheal Stavro wrote about it (I will track it down and explain better if you want).  The other thing is that if we are using modeled plugs such as the 1176, if they are behaving in the way that the original or the "real" version would then driving the plug into the red should result in a similar sound.  I know that this flies in the face of what people know of digital but, this is a bright new shiney world and "what we know about digtal" is very little.
 
Finally bitflipper is right, always trim the main buss although I am not in agreeence with his peaks, between -6 and -3 is the optimum level for digital (as I say the best part of digital or where to find all the harmonics and good bits is at the tip of the peak) and this is the kicker an rms value of around -18db of course different levels for different styles of music.  Also you can trim the other buss's so the mix fits better.
 
Ok I will find the information about 64 bit, but to surmise which I should have done last night, it is my understanding, that what freddie was saying and from my understanding of the link to the blog which I have read is that if everything is at 32 bit or 64 bit it eases the strain on all the computing parts, this includes hard drives, memory and CPU, what the blog is saying is because there is no upsampling or downsampling or bit conversion going on, it frees up computer power.  But what the blog also said was that whilst there was some improvement in the overall performance, it was negligable and hard to qualify that benifit, or that is how I read it.

Bitflipper this is interesting stuff to me. My tiny brain is rooted in ancient analog tech and so is my understanding of distortion. Analog vacuum tube distortion can be wonderful to my ears due to the soft clipping and natural compression inherent to this technology, but any digital distortion sound like a malfunction to me.

My settings are very much inline with what's been discussed, but my recording methods are from the tubes and tape era. Run everything right up to the edge of clipping 0 db. I think a light is flickering to life here. It sounds like I should really be aiming for -12 to -6 db. I can then mix using my plugs of choice to get a nice dynamic range and more separation between the instruments without ending up with a confused, mushy mix.

Am I reading you right on this one?? Many thanks folks.

Hi all,with respect for all points of view,i believe that is a little bit confusion in the DbFS and RMS.
I have noticed that sometimes complicates the process.
In all prjs i use a K system meters on master bus with -14db equal 0 db setting and - 6 db peak value on master bus mix.
I can have huge headroom for mastering session to preserv all transients and all distortions with mix plug ins.
In mastering session i can decide if put some stuff to warm the mix safely.
This is one of the advantages in the digital world.

Greetings

Roby

cake2010


With all due respect there seems to be confusion about digital/analog mixing, headroom and gain staging.

This is not something "new" or limited to the "digital" age.
I was listening to "Do Wah Ditty" over the weekend and the vocal (this was on the radio) seemed pretty "hot" to me.
I'm guessing the VU was slamming on that session.
I'm all "ears", please enlighten us...

...my recording methods are from the tubes and tape era. Run everything right up to the edge of clipping 0 db

Exactly - this is the legacy we old timers have to let go of in the digital world. There is no benefit to recording or mixing close to 0db, only lots of dangers.

Pushing the envelope on tube gear and tape machines helps S/N ratios, yields pleasant-sounding distortion, and helps glue the mix together. Pushing digital audio up to the brick wall just sounds nasty.