Need Suggestion Regarding Mixing

Hi All!
 
I'm mixing a project consisting of Solo Piano and Piano and Vocals.
 
I'm very satisfied with the initial recording, especially the solo piano.
 
What I'm trying to do with the piano and vocal tracks that seem to be difficult for me is this.....
 
1) Create a difinitive space for the vocals to set properly in the mix
 
2) Bring up the level of the entire track on both the Solo piano as well as the tracks with vocals (through compression).
 
3) Decide if I should use the compressor on the Master Bus or create a seperate bus for both the vocal track and piano to be routed to individually.
 
I also saw a video on youtube describing how to use compression to raise the level of a song to a certain amount of decibals on the Master Bus.
 
(link)
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S6s4Sr6YJ0&feature=view_all&list=PL6E16F7C13125826B&index=50
 
However when I followed these suggestions the compressor didn't seem to be working for me at all.
 
Does anyone use this procedure?
 
Does this seem to be a good starting point?
 
How would you approach these issues.
 
Thanks,
 
Harpo    

Thanks Chappel.
 
Very interesting thread.
 
I have to admit, I too have to label myself as a newbie of sorts when it comes to the art of compression.
I understand the basics, but "in practice" I sometimes get to a point where my original "purpose" for using compression in the first place becomes blurred and I end up feeling like I need to listen to the track totally free of any effects and start from scratch.
This can become frustrating very quickly.
 
I gues the more I experiment and read about compression, the more I'll "hear" exactly when and why I'm using it! 
 
Creating really good recordings is such a huge learning curve, but I thoroughly love and enjoy the journey (though I must admit, I'm a bit envious of those who seem to have it "all together" ha. ha).
 
Thanks again
 
Harpo

If you want something to sound louder turn it up (or turn the other things around it down).

If you want it to adjust the dynamic range (and by consequence, possibly, alter the perceived volume use a compressor.

The space around / between the vox and piano is easier to acheive using reverb and or delay. Personally I use quite a lot of very short 'ambience' verbs to help gell different instuments in to a similar space without necessarily using an obvious reverb.

Getting the timing right is crucial, this applies to both the pre-delay and length of verbs as well as the attack and decay times of your compressor (60 / tempo * 100 is a good place to start ;-))

Child

I just watched (most of) the video. It seems like solid, basic information. Unfortunately, it's inappropriate for your specific project. Solo instrument + voice is just about the hardest kind of project there is, IMO. I would be very cautious with compression in particular, as it's so important to preserve dynamic range when there's only one instrument out there naked and alone.

Yes be careful with compressing a piano. It seems a little strange , but mixing a solo piano into a finished product that will play nicely in your average listening environment is way harder than mixing a rock band.
The performance will be annoying if it has no dynamics but keeping the level up there where it can be heard and maintaining dynamics is a challenge.
My method is to not use any compression at all on the piano track.
I use Wave lab and manually edit the peaks. There is a big difference in the sound of something when it gets compressed. We don't really want to hear that squashing sound on a classical recording. Just physically turning down the gain will not effect the way it sounds, just make it quieter. Once I get rid of all offending peaks, I'll normalize the track to bring the level up to -2 or -4.
If there is a very quiet passage, I will highlight and add +2 Db or? and see what happens. The art form here is being musical about all this editing.

I like Rothchilds explanation of using ambiance. I always run all tracks that need it through the same ambient efx. Nothing muddys a mix faster than 6 different reverbs and delay times on separate tracks. In a way that reverb/delay is our trademark to our mixes. Our personal signature. We all know about Phil Specters reverb choice. I sometimes spend more time editing, changing the reverb patch than any other task on hand for the album.
 

What about parallel compression?

Maybe you could set up the compressor so that the transients come through cleanly, then if you mix just a bit of it with the original, you'll get a -  fairly limited - bit of loudness while retaining the dynamic range?

Don't know if it would work or not, just throwing ideas out.

Yes, I was going to mention parallel compression too, but that's a whole new level of finesse. But a most excellent suggestion.
 to explain
Run one signal directly through the compressor.
Run a parallel signal without compression and mix the 2 together.
The compressed signal will bring up the level and the unprocessed signal will give you dynamics.

I agree with Rico on this one. If you do decide to use compression , I would start with slow attacks and slow release with less than 1:1.5 ratio - Threshold to catch peaks only.

( personally I would apply a VERY minimal limit with an equal offset upward gain adjust. Set for the loudest peak and leave the dynamics)

Cactus Music

Cactus Music
 
My Waveforms never look like this after compression.
Why is that? Could you give me some
general settings that you use to attain this much compression?
 
I always still have those blasted "peaks" showing even after compression!
This visual would suggest that my goal should be to get rid of the peaks, correct? 
  

 

I'm sorry I was going to post the comment below the picture-
" This is what you DON"T want it to look like."
 That file on right will have a squashed ( compressed)  sound.

Harpo,

Being somewhat of a purist, I'd have to agree that using compression on the piano, unless you are not very proficient <like me!> will probably do more to harm the performance than enhance it. The voice, pretty much the same thing, but a little different.
If I were doing your project, I'd isolate each track separately and work on each track separately, as in, one at a time. Perfect the piano track until it sounds like what you wanted it to sound like. By that, I mean eq it til the piano sounds like you want it to sound, apply the appropriate room reverb just to the piano to get the sound that you want to portray the mood of the piano's performance, and when you listen to it again, if there are clearly places where the piano drops out of audibility (and that is not your desired effect), apply the tiniest amount of soft compression to the entire track. You won't notice it on the loud stuff, but the quiet stuff will no longer disappear.

Then do the same thing to your vocal track. Only YOU know what you want your voice to sound like, so you have to tweak like heck til you get that "perfect" EQ setting for your voice. Since the voice is SO dynamic, compression makes sense here, but again, a little goes a LONG way. Once you've dealt with the quiet passages, then play it again and turn your attention to the loudest passages (if you can't HEAR them, just look at your VU meters on the vocal track..if they go into the red too much, note the time in the track where that is) and apply a soft limiter. All of the plugins come with some basic presets, some of which are great starting places to go from. Once you're done with all that, then mix the two tracks for volume til you get the desired effect, and THEN apply an overall reverb to the entire mix (if you are looking for a cohesive room sound in addition to the individual instrument sounds).

Nothing wrong with clean and natural, either!!! :))
Hope there is something in here you can use..you have a lot of great comments before this one...