jsg
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Peak Limiting and its Discontents
I started to use peak limiting on a few of my tracks a while ago. At first I thought it improved the sound, and for a few pieces it might have. But nowadays, whenever I use it I seem to immediately notice that the transparency and clarity of the mix and orchestration suffer. I am beginning to believe that peak limiting is really not a good tool for complex, subtle music that has a lot of layers of texture and changing textures. It seems to do more harm than good. I don't know if anyone remembers, but I posted this piece a month ago or so with peak limiting. Here is the version without it. I definitely is more of what I want it to sound like. A slightly smaller, more transparent sound is actually the more effective mix. Sonar 7 VSL symphonic cube www.jerrygerber.com/fivepiecesforvi1.htm Jerry www.jerrygerber.com
post edited by jsg - 2011/07/10 00:51:13
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Peak Limiting and its Discontents
2011/07/10 08:36:57
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Hi Jerry,
The key to this is first off, the mix must be ready to go before you put a peak limiter on it. Next, the right limiter has to be used. You can't just grab one and make it work on all projects. Some of them are just not very good.
The next phase is to never use presets and use the limiter correctly while dialing it in on your song. Used in moderation, it's an excellent tool. It doesn't have to kill transparency. If it is, it's the limiter you're using or you could be using it too much or even improperly.
When instrumentation suffers or doesn't remain clear...or distortion occurs, it's your use of the limiter bringing that one. Here's are a few cause and effects.
1. Distortion: When you hear this, you're pushing the threshold too hard and your out ceiling is too low. This causes what I call "square box syndrome" and your wave files will look like this.
███████
███████
2. Lack of clarity: Chances are your mix is not correct and the limiting and use of threshold and ratio may not be correct. Again, pushing certain limiters too hard can also bring on this artifact. A good limiter will not remove your clarity unless you use it to the extreme. Even on a good mix, the wrong limiter can kill you.
3. Stereo field loss: Certain limiters as well as how you have them set, can literally decrease your stereo field. They not only compress and limit your material, they can make the stereo field more narrow. Add in the distortion artifacts and possible over-use, and you now lose stereo field and gain a more narrow mix with the included artifacts as well.
4. Your output volume of your mix: If you are running a mix at -0dB and slap a limiter on, your are going to gain artifacts much easier than if your mix was at -3dB or lower. You need some space here so that you aren't pushing things too hard. All my mixes go out at -3dB peak before I master anything or use any type of limiting. There are many sides to the final output story, but in my experiments, the advice of Bob Katz in regards to final mix outputs of -3dB peak are what has worked perfectly for me regardless of what bit or sample rate I use.
The key with this is everything in moderation. However, some mixes, like the newer rock/metal of today, have insane limiting going on. When they use this stuff, they too lose some stereo field and add it back in with a stereo imager. You shouldn't have to do that though if your material is not in the genre of needing to be slammed to death.
If you are using stock presets of any kind and just tweaking them, chances are you are failing. Every preset created was done either as a joke to take up space in the preset menu to showcase the plug or it was created using material that isn't remotely close to yours. There are industry standard starting points for mastering compression and limiting, but even those will sometimes fall short depending on the instrumentation used as well as the particular mix you are working with and your final output. These processers need to be dialed in perfectly per project to really get the best out of them, and it's a good idea to have the right settings for your project each time.
Best of luck and I hope this helps a bit. :)
-Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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timidi
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Re:Peak Limiting and its Discontents
2011/07/10 09:05:01
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Jerry, your pieces sound plenty loud to me. As far as not liking limiters, well, it's all a matter of tweaking till you do. Or, tweaking till you don't and then back off a bit.
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jsg
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Re:Peak Limiting and its Discontents
2011/07/10 12:07:38
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jsg
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Re:Peak Limiting and its Discontents
2011/07/10 12:14:13
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Danny Danzi
Hi Jerry,
The key to this is first off, the mix must be ready to go before you put a peak limiter on it. Next, the right limiter has to be used. You can't just grab one and make it work on all projects. Some of them are just not very good.
The next phase is to never use presets and use the limiter correctly while dialing it in on your song. Used in moderation, it's an excellent tool. It doesn't have to kill transparency. If it is, it's the limiter you're using or you could be using it too much or even improperly.
When instrumentation suffers or doesn't remain clear...or distortion occurs, it's your use of the limiter bringing that one. Here's are a few cause and effects.
1. Distortion: When you hear this, you're pushing the threshold too hard and your out ceiling is too low. This causes what I call "square box syndrome" and your wave files will look like this.
███████
███████
2. Lack of clarity: Chances are your mix is not correct and the limiting and use of threshold and ratio may not be correct. Again, pushing certain limiters too hard can also bring on this artifact. A good limiter will not remove your clarity unless you use it to the extreme. Even on a good mix, the wrong limiter can kill you.
3. Stereo field loss: Certain limiters as well as how you have them set, can literally decrease your stereo field. They not only compress and limit your material, they can make the stereo field more narrow. Add in the distortion artifacts and possible over-use, and you now lose stereo field and gain a more narrow mix with the included artifacts as well.
4. Your output volume of your mix: If you are running a mix at -0dB and slap a limiter on, your are going to gain artifacts much easier than if your mix was at -3dB or lower. You need some space here so that you aren't pushing things too hard. All my mixes go out at -3dB peak before I master anything or use any type of limiting. There are many sides to the final output story, but in my experiments, the advice of Bob Katz in regards to final mix outputs of -3dB peak are what has worked perfectly for me regardless of what bit or sample rate I use.
The key with this is everything in moderation. However, some mixes, like the newer rock/metal of today, have insane limiting going on. When they use this stuff, they too lose some stereo field and add it back in with a stereo imager. You shouldn't have to do that though if your material is not in the genre of needing to be slammed to death.
If you are using stock presets of any kind and just tweaking them, chances are you are failing. Every preset created was done either as a joke to take up space in the preset menu to showcase the plug or it was created using material that isn't remotely close to yours. There are industry standard starting points for mastering compression and limiting, but even those will sometimes fall short depending on the instrumentation used as well as the particular mix you are working with and your final output. These processers need to be dialed in perfectly per project to really get the best out of them, and it's a good idea to have the right settings for your project each time.
Best of luck and I hope this helps a bit. :)
-Danny
Hey Danny, I am not sure you listened to the piece I was referring to. Everything you say is true, I have come to the same conclusion through experience. But some pieces are better off without any peak limiting at all, particularly pieces where wide dynamic range is an intrinsic part of the music, where there are many instruments and where there is transparency built into contrapuntal textures. I find in these cases the gain in loudness is never worth the subtle (and not so subtle) effects on the mix. I spend countless hours getting my MIDI sequences to "sound", where the velocities, volumes, attacks, releases and articulation are where I want them. Limiting will often just undo all of my hard work! Jerry www.jerrygerber.com
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Maxprizm
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Re:Peak Limiting and its Discontents
2011/07/10 15:39:37
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Limiting doesn't have to undo all your hard work unless you're smashing it to death. Subtle use of the limiter can even accentuate the dynamics as each velocity hits the limiter in a different way. It comes down to "too much of a good thing isn't so good anymore" syndrome. In this day and age if it doesn't have a certain listenable volume, the piece will easily get dismissed by it's listeners. The -3 rule is good practice as you're not 'limiting' anything for at least 3db, using it more as a volume expander than a transient killer or distortion box.  Alot of commercial releases can be well over 10db, some at 17+ wich is just bone crunching volume. Having said that, Classical is much more sensitive to it than say commercial pop. Find your loudest peak and just kiss it. That should retain all the dynamics. Or if you want it done right, higher a good mastering engineer who has experience with the subtleties of classical. The piece is definitely worth it.
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jsg
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Re:Peak Limiting and its Discontents
2011/07/10 23:48:56
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Maxprizm
Limiting doesn't have to undo all your hard work unless you're smashing it to death. Subtle use of the limiter can even accentuate the dynamics as each velocity hits the limiter in a different way. It comes down to "too much of a good thing isn't so good anymore" syndrome. In this day and age if it doesn't have a certain listenable volume, the piece will easily get dismissed by it's listeners. The -3 rule is good practice as you're not 'limiting' anything for at least 3db, using it more as a volume expander than a transient killer or distortion box.
Alot of commercial releases can be well over 10db, some at 17+ wich is just bone crunching volume. Having said that, Classical is much more sensitive to it than say commercial pop. Find your loudest peak and just kiss it. That should retain all the dynamics.
Or if you want it done right, higher a good mastering engineer who has experience with the subtleties of classical. The piece is definitely worth it.
Hi, and I am glad you enjoyed the piece. I wouldn't think -3dB of peak limiting with a ceiling of -1dB is pushing it too far, but I might be wrong. I've been finishing mixes, before using peak limiting, at -1dBfs (peak), I could try lowering that a dB or so. The primary reason I tried using peak limiting was to "even out" the RMS level of each piece on a given album to the best level given the dynamic ranges of the pieces. Though it did seem to help the volume between tracks to have a bit more amplitude unity, the overall effect within the pieces wasn't pleasing. As they say, do no harm to the sound, better to do nothing. Sometimes. Education never stops. It may have something to do with my instruments (all samples/digital synthesis), my orchestration style, and my frequent use of counterpoint that requires careful balancing in the sequencing stage. What is the point of using a little peak limiting (other than to get a bit higher RMS levels) if it starts messing with the levels of the inner voices and the chordal voice leading when it already is the way I want it? Best, Jerry www.jerrygerber.com
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LpMike75
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Re:Peak Limiting and its Discontents
2011/07/11 00:02:51
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Jerry I kind of feel the same way as you, that these pieces dont need limiters, or very little at most. The wide dynamic range is what makes the music come alive.
By the way, I loved the piece with all its tempo and meter changes. Thanks for posting the score, it was great to follow along.
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rockinrobby 
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Re:Peak Limiting and its Discontents
2011/07/11 00:18:26
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Taking a limiter from a recording engineer is like taking a level from a carpenter... Tools in the tool belt. It's how we use them. If the only tool you have is a hammer? Then every project looks like a nail :-( More tools is more gooder. Saturation, widening, limitting, compression, verb, delay, etc... Tools in the belt.
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Peak Limiting and its Discontents
2011/07/11 08:31:55
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jsg
Danny Danzi
Hi Jerry,
The key to this is first off, the mix must be ready to go before you put a peak limiter on it. Next, the right limiter has to be used. You can't just grab one and make it work on all projects. Some of them are just not very good.
The next phase is to never use presets and use the limiter correctly while dialing it in on your song. Used in moderation, it's an excellent tool. It doesn't have to kill transparency. If it is, it's the limiter you're using or you could be using it too much or even improperly.
When instrumentation suffers or doesn't remain clear...or distortion occurs, it's your use of the limiter bringing that one. Here's are a few cause and effects.
1. Distortion: When you hear this, you're pushing the threshold too hard and your out ceiling is too low. This causes what I call "square box syndrome" and your wave files will look like this.
███████
███████
2. Lack of clarity: Chances are your mix is not correct and the limiting and use of threshold and ratio may not be correct. Again, pushing certain limiters too hard can also bring on this artifact. A good limiter will not remove your clarity unless you use it to the extreme. Even on a good mix, the wrong limiter can kill you.
3. Stereo field loss: Certain limiters as well as how you have them set, can literally decrease your stereo field. They not only compress and limit your material, they can make the stereo field more narrow. Add in the distortion artifacts and possible over-use, and you now lose stereo field and gain a more narrow mix with the included artifacts as well.
4. Your output volume of your mix: If you are running a mix at -0dB and slap a limiter on, your are going to gain artifacts much easier than if your mix was at -3dB or lower. You need some space here so that you aren't pushing things too hard. All my mixes go out at -3dB peak before I master anything or use any type of limiting. There are many sides to the final output story, but in my experiments, the advice of Bob Katz in regards to final mix outputs of -3dB peak are what has worked perfectly for me regardless of what bit or sample rate I use.
The key with this is everything in moderation. However, some mixes, like the newer rock/metal of today, have insane limiting going on. When they use this stuff, they too lose some stereo field and add it back in with a stereo imager. You shouldn't have to do that though if your material is not in the genre of needing to be slammed to death.
If you are using stock presets of any kind and just tweaking them, chances are you are failing. Every preset created was done either as a joke to take up space in the preset menu to showcase the plug or it was created using material that isn't remotely close to yours. There are industry standard starting points for mastering compression and limiting, but even those will sometimes fall short depending on the instrumentation used as well as the particular mix you are working with and your final output. These processers need to be dialed in perfectly per project to really get the best out of them, and it's a good idea to have the right settings for your project each time.
Best of luck and I hope this helps a bit. :)
-Danny
Hey Danny,
I am not sure you listened to the piece I was referring to. Everything you say is true, I have come to the same conclusion through experience. But some pieces are better off without any peak limiting at all, particularly pieces where wide dynamic range is an intrinsic part of the music, where there are many instruments and where there is transparency built into contrapuntal textures. I find in these cases the gain in loudness is never worth the subtle (and not so subtle) effects on the mix. I spend countless hours getting my MIDI sequences to "sound", where the velocities, volumes, attacks, releases and articulation are where I want them. Limiting will often just undo all of my hard work!
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
Hi Jerry, I totally understand what you're saying. However, like I mentioned, it depends on the limiter you use and how you use it. I can use a peak limiter and just allow it to control transients without it messing up any dynamics. This is what allows the mix to stay tight. There's a difference between tightening and using the limiter to make things loud an brick wall it so to speak. For exmaple, a limiter like the PSP Xenon is so good, you can use it on anything and it will never remove dynamics unless you intentionally hit it hard. For newer rock or metal, I prefer the sound of the Waves L2 or L3, but for classic rock, country, Gospal, R&B, blues....anything that doesn't need a limiter to be used as a loudness tool, the PSP in my opinion is the best limiter out there because it's so transparent. As a matter of fact, if you really hit it, you can still make it sound good, but it's almost too clean of a limiter to be used in this manner where the Waves stuff somewhat dirties up in the right areas in moderation. See, (I just listened to your piece) a limiter on your stuff could definitely kill it if you're not careful. The object for you should be a tightening tool that is not a dynamic killer or super volume boost. You wouldn't want a constant -0dB going on with your stuff. You may want the loudest point in the mix to hit -0.3 like one time or something, ya know? This way you're not brickwalling anything or making your dynamics suffer. You'd be using the limiter like a 2 bus compressor....you just want a little glue. Heck, you could get away with just a compressor if need be...either one will work when used correctly. But yeah, I wouldn't even think about a major push from a limiter for your stuff....which I quite enjoyed this tune....excellent instrumentation and composition man...wow! :) -Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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