Tracking Question for the Pro's

when tracking clean electric guitar or bass, how much headroom(on the Sonar meters) is too much headroom, before noise becomes an issue?? i finally got myself a decent preamp, and this changes everything. i want to play and record at quieter levels.. my S/N ratio seems pretty high. can i flirt in the -15db to -9db(no processing)area and it still be hot enough?  anytime i go past -9db its loud man..and im reaching for the headphones..the preamp really set me back and i wont be able to afford new monitors anytime soon...can't  you  bring the levels up at a later stage, and still be on the safe-side??       thanx aleef.. 

Yes, easily -15 down to -24 should be fine for line level signals (assuming you mean the final track level in Sonar)  but it can be dependent on how noisy your lines are. Grounding, fluorescent lights etc can still create problems but if the lines are clean then -24 should be fine. You can bring the levels up by slapping a limiter on the master buss or a compressor if you like what it does.

Yes, easily -15 down to -24 should be fine for line level signals (assuming you mean the final track level in Sonar) but it can be dependent on how noisy your lines are. Grounding, fluorescent lights etc can still create problems but if the lines are clean then -24 should be fine. You can bring the levels up by slapping a limiter on the master buss or a compressor if you like what it does.

 
 
yes i was referring to the -db levels in Sonar.. thanx Middleman.. wow!! -15 to -24 that is good to know.. i was not really sure.

Those of us who grew up on 2-inch 24-track analogue tape and tweaked machines so they were always cutting way into the red have to fight the urge to record hotter.  But my brain knows Middleman is right.

Personally, I don't care for the sound that any software limiter add's. I use them, but I find if I can get my signal going as hot as I can in to the limiter without having to lower threshold the better they sound.

I've used Ozone 4, Boost 11, and George Yohng's free Waves L1 clone limiter. Ozone's sounds the best to me when I really drive it, but I can still hear 'something' that I'd rather not. Boost 11 is the worst, but like I said, if I get the signal going in hot enough to where I only have to adjust it a few decibels, then I can't really tell it's there.

I recently got a hardware pre-amp (Meaning something other than just my sound cards pre-amp) and since then I've been running as hot as I can in to Sonar and haven't had a problem, if anything it's helped. I'm hovering between -2 ~ -10 and haven't had a problem. I also set Sonar to record 32 bits.

But then again, I'm not a pro either.

And for the record , I do NOT miss tape at all:  drop-outs, editing with a razor blade and tape, speed fluctuations, mechanical failures, cleaning heads, paying a fortune for 2-inch tape, no way to copy or backup without losing quality, no undo button, no layers (virtual tracks), great skill and luck required to punch in seamlessly, etc.  And every retake or punch diminished quality somewhat.

I have loved digital from the start—I just have to remind myself once in a while on the levels.

konradh

I have loved digital from the start—I just have to remind myself once in a while on the levels.

Not quite from the start for me. I spent a few years watching ADAT machines fail to sync up and praying for the return of tape. But yeah, hard drive based recording from late 90s onwards is really very awesome. I'd never want to go back. Tape's a pain in the ass, really.

John T, I hear you, man.  ADAT was a cool oncept but a drop-out there could be a real issue; and VHS was a Rube Golberg mechanical nightmare.  It's amazing that it worked as much as it did.

I love both tape and Sonar !! But I love Sonar the mostest.

AT


Aleef, 

  In SONAR's meters?   -9 is fine in SONAR.  In the preamp - the level should be where it sounds good even if you are overdriving it.

@

+1
 
During tracking, everything goes as long you don't PEAK the recording over 0 db, especially if you record in 32bit floating. You still want to have the headroom in the signal path so you can continue work the Audio-files/ clips in SONAR. -6-to 12db is a great signal.
 
To get anything to "Sound loud" "is not any problem, but to get it sound good its what all secrets are all about!
 
Best Regards
Freddie

Bristol_Jonesey

Bub

jamescollins

... your interface cannot record at 32 bits...

Yes I know that. But this has been discussed at great length here and I decided to change.

There are some good arguments for setting your 'Record' bit depth to 32 bit. I set 'Record' 'Render' and 'Import' to 32bit.

This thread explains it very well.

Bub, I just through that entire thread (again) and nowhere do I see a compelling argument for recording at 32 bit.

You'll end up with much bigger audio files because the extra 8 bits will be padded out with zeros, the only marginal gain you might see on  a good day is an imperceptibly quicker render time for bounces & exports.

Apart from that, what's the point?

There are other benfits using and working with 32bit floating above instead of 24bit.
 
 
* You can't peak the signal even if its over 0 db 
 
 
* Everytime you "Render" or "cut & clip and paste" a 24bit file you will loose audio quality. This will not happen in 32bit floating format or above.
 
* ALL plugins and VST-I sound quality you hear when playing back you SONAR are in 32bit floating or above (64bit). SO if you do a "DIGITAL Mixdown" to AUDIO track on any VSTI and plugin rendered it will sound exactly the same (crisp) as it did when it played back LIVE. This will not be the same 24bit fileformat. You will hear loose in quality.
 
* Technically (1 and 0) its goes mutch faster and take less resources for the CPU and Memory to read an 64bit file or a 32bit files then a 24bit file.  So technically you will enhance both SONAR X1 and the SYSTEM and get overall better performance working with 32bit floaing files or above.
 
 
 
 
....and I can go on... so the extra extra 8 bits are very worth it.. When were last any disk read or storage any problem?
 
-----------------------> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_point
 
 
Best Regards
Freddie

If you still have some of those old tape machines laying around....you might want to try this little baby: http://www.vintageking.com/Endless-Analog-Clasp

He meant "low volume" not "low frequency".

Apart from that, what's the point?

 
32Bit Float format can capture a sum greater than 0dB (without clipping).
Not so useful on tracking (cause the A/D can't capture above 0dB).
Upon bouncing down, if you hit +.5dB, you'd be OK if capturing to 32Bit Float.
Just turn the audio down .6dB prior to converting to integer.