Anyone running MAC OSX on a PC?

I've not tried it myself, but I read about it in the past. 

An emulator would probably mean poor performance if it worked. Not saying that it definitely won't work, but just consider how complex it can sometime be to run Sonar on a PC - how people tweak and tweak and fine tune their OS etc... Then imagine the number of issues if you were running an emulator which would run an OS which would run Sonar. 

This article is rather old, too. Nowadays, there are alternatives (do a search for Hackintosh). Nevertheless, once again, building a PC that will run OSX isn't that simple. And judging from all the reports I've read, when it worked, most of the time there were issues with audio, preventing applications like DP or Logic from working.

That's taking a lot of chances, furthermore considering that there's no demo for Logic - unless you're ready to spend money and time on a machine, then buy OSX and then spend a few hundred bucks on a piece of software which may not even work on that machine.

Anyway, for the price of the components of a "hackintosh", you could get a Mac Mini (starting price $600) and run Logic on that.

If you're wanting a trouble-free experience... and you're not a hardcore computer person, I'd avoid a Hackintosh.
It's fun in theory... but by definition, you're running a hacked OS.  Not the foundation on which to build a rock-solid DAW...
FWIW, Logic sits idle on my MacBook Pro.  Don't feel it offers anything superior to what I can achieve on the PC...

I run Windows on a Mac sometimes and it's not a pleasant experience. I would imagine the reverse would not be much different. 

Rain, thanks for the link. Logic Express looks like really good value. I think it is interesting that the latest version of Logic is 2009. Sonar has a more frequent release cycle in comparison (and there are pros and cons for that).

Well, the cycle between major releases is longer, but Logic gets many free updates. See, version 9 came out in 2009, yet I think the latest update (9.1.4) was made available sometime this spring or earlier this summer. 

Thanks Rain, that's exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. The base model 13" sounds like it would work fine for what I want. My laptop is ancient at the moment, and not capable of running any current audio apps, so I've been looking to upgrade it anyway.  

Jim, as you actually have Logic running on a MacBook Pro I'd be interested in your views on the recommended MacBook Pro specs for running Logic.

 
I'm a bit "jaded"
I'm used to having loads of speed... and being able to work with heavy loads at the smallest ASIO buffer sizes.
Thus, most laptops (including the latest MBPs) leave me wanting more.
My MBP is a 2.4GHz Core2Duo unit.  Not slow... but not blazing fast
For basic tracking/mixing, it's OK.  Nothing like my 4.5Ghz Sandybridge tower...
If you plan to make extensive use of soft-synths (Kontakt with advanced sample libraries, etc),  I'd get the fastest Mac you can afford.
 
Regarding Logic, I like the way it deals with comping takes.
Otherwise, I don't find it particularly exciting.  Ten plus years ago... I felt much different (as Logic was in many ways a more advanced tool).  ie: Logic had realtime non-destructive MIDI quantization prior to all other apps.
Fast forward to today... and the situation is a lot different.
I much prefer my toolbox of Sonar, Cubase, ProTools, SoundForge, Vegas Pro, etc.

Jim Roseberry

My MBP is a 2.4GHz Core2Duo unit.  Not slow... but not blazing fast
For basic tracking/mixing, it's OK.  Nothing like my 4.5Ghz Sandybridge tower...
If you plan to make extensive use of soft-synths (Kontakt with advanced sample libraries, etc),  I'd get the fastest Mac you can afford.
 

Jim, thanks for sharing your thoughts on Logic and MBP. One thing that confuses me is whether I would be better off with the faster CPU of the 13 inch model, which is dual core (available in 2.7 GHz) or the base model 15 inch version which is 2 GHz quad core. I would think the quad core would win out here, but I am just guessing.

Somerset

jackn2mpu


A couple of days late to the party but something to think about: now that OSX Lion is out, along with the new Mac Mini and Macbook Air (both of which come with Lion and cannot be run under Snow Leopard) you have to watch for whatever you want to run on your new Mac will run in Lion.  

Thanks - I am not familiar with MAC OS names. Why the heck do they name the OS after animals? 

I am not sure - it's been this way ever since OSX (10.0 aka Cheetah) first got out 10 years ago. Every major revision gets a nickname. And it's current incarnation, 10.8, was dubbed Lion. 

As for Logic, according to your first post, you mention you want to dabble with it so I take it that you'll also keep on using Sonar, so I didn't really post any pros and cons at first be here's a couple of thoughts. 

A few things I like in Logic: 

Comping tracks - best in business. You simply swipe across the parts you want to ear/add to the comp. No need to cut/mute/solo/resize/consolidate anything. And you can save as many alternative comps as you want. They will all appear in a drop down menu at the right edge of the clip folder. It's so easy that at first I thought I was missing something. It couldn't be THAT simple.

Integrated sampler. Simple yet powerful, and efficient. And creating sampler instruments from existing audio is as easy as right clicking and selecting "create instrument".

Integrated Audio Editor. 

Looping. You can loop anything in a single operation (clicking L) in Logic. No need to first turn it into a loop and then drag it. Click L and the clip will loop until the end of your song OR until it hits another clip on its track.

Virtual Instruments Handling - You just insert them like regular plug-ins - no synth rack. Makes it a breeze to replace instruments, or to drag copy them to a new track.

Bundled FX - In terms of EQ, Compression, Delay, and all the usual, at least as good as any other. But I'm referring to less usual ones like Ringshifter, Autofilter and Spectral Gate. These are nice unusual effects to have in your toolbox.

Flex Time - I prefer it to Sonar's equivalent. 

Varispeed - I don't actually use it in projects, but it's quite handy for slowing down/rehearsing songs.

Scaled GUI - That's a huge one for me, working on a 13" MBP and Logic helps me make the most out of it. Even at hi res, there's still a lot of wasted screen space in X1. 

BUT

Freeze implementation - Sonar all the way. In Logic, a frozen clip is basically locked there. You can't do anything w/ it, not even copy it.

MIDI Plugins - Logic doesn't handle them. So if you want an arpeggiator, you have to create one in the Environment (not the most user friendly aspect of Logic). Plus, it won't arpeggiate unless you initiate playback.

Sonar has Clip-based effects. Logic doesn't.

Sonar has the Archive function. Logic doesn't (though you can work around it, I've always dug Archive).


These are a few things I can think of. Ultimately, you can do pretty much anything in either Sonar or Logic, and in many cases, getting to know your main application and the workarounds for its shortcomings levels the playing field. Meaning that if you've worked with Sonar for 5 or 10 years, it'll probably take a while before you're as quick in new app, no matter how better certain functionalities are implemented.

jackn2mpu

Somerset

Jim Roseberry

My MBP is a 2.4GHz Core2Duo unit.  Not slow... but not blazing fast
For basic tracking/mixing, it's OK.  Nothing like my 4.5Ghz Sandybridge tower...
If you plan to make extensive use of soft-synths (Kontakt with advanced sample libraries, etc),  I'd get the fastest Mac you can afford.

Jim, thanks for sharing your thoughts on Logic and MBP. One thing that confuses me is whether I would be better off with the faster CPU of the 13 inch model, which is dual core (available in 2.7 GHz) or the base model 15 inch version which is 2 GHz quad core. I would think the quad core would win out here, but I am just guessing.

Given those choices, I'd go the 15 inch MBP route. A couple of must-have options: go for the 500 gig 7200 rpm drive instead of the stock 500 gig 5400 rpm drive - you'll be much happier and your programs will thank you for it ($100 extra). Also plump for the antiglare screen option as the glossy stock screens are real difficult to work with in any environment where you have light coming in from above and over your shoulder - the screen makes a great mirror that way which isn't good ($150 extra).

Option not to get from Apple: extra ram above base amount. If you're reasonably confident of your skills go aftermarket. OWC at: http://eshop.macsales.com...ade/DDR3_1333MHz_SDRAM has some good deals on ram. 8 gig from them is $79 versus $200 from Apple. Stay away from the 12 and 16 gig ram upgrades until the prices of 8 gig laptop ram sticks come down. For some reason laptop ram is more expensive in the bigger sticks than desktop ram. For example: $1400 for 16 gig for that MBP versus $1215 for 64 gig for a MacPro desktop.

Another possible option from Apple is going with the 2.2 GHz 15 inch MBP for another $400. Not worth it as far as I can see.

Thanks Jack, I appreciate your suggestions. I think that ultimately the cost of all the different options will end up being a significant factor. Although I'd prefer the 15" for the bigger screen and the faster hard drive option (the 13" doesn't advertise a 7200 rpm option), the additional costs start to mount up quite rapidly. My main aim here is to get a reasonably decent laptop and a workable platform to learn Logic, without spending too much. I am not certain yet what I will end up getting. I may even end up getting the Mac Mini because it seems just as capable as the MBP (perhaps even more so if I choose the file server version) and would end up a lot cheaper. I'll probably wait a little while to decide the best option. 

Rain

Somerset

jackn2mpu


A couple of days late to the party but something to think about: now that OSX Lion is out, along with the new Mac Mini and Macbook Air (both of which come with Lion and cannot be run under Snow Leopard) you have to watch for whatever you want to run on your new Mac will run in Lion.  

Thanks - I am not familiar with MAC OS names. Why the heck do they name the OS after animals? 

I am not sure - it's been this way ever since OSX (10.0 aka Cheetah) first got out 10 years ago. Every major revision gets a nickname. And it's current incarnation, 10.8, was dubbed Lion. 

As for Logic, according to your first post, you mention you want to dabble with it so I take it that you'll also keep on using Sonar, so I didn't really post any pros and cons at first be here's a couple of thoughts. 

A few things I like in Logic: 

Comping tracks - best in business. You simply swipe across the parts you want to ear/add to the comp. No need to cut/mute/solo/resize/consolidate anything. And you can save as many alternative comps as you want. They will all appear in a drop down menu at the right edge of the clip folder. It's so easy that at first I thought I was missing something. It couldn't be THAT simple.

Integrated sampler. Simple yet powerful, and efficient. And creating sampler instruments from existing audio is as easy as right clicking and selecting "create instrument".

Integrated Audio Editor. 

Looping. You can loop anything in a single operation (clicking L) in Logic. No need to first turn it into a loop and then drag it. Click L and the clip will loop until the end of your song OR until it hits another clip on its track.

Virtual Instruments Handling - You just insert them like regular plug-ins - no synth rack. Makes it a breeze to replace instruments, or to drag copy them to a new track.

Bundled FX - In terms of EQ, Compression, Delay, and all the usual, at least as good as any other. But I'm referring to less usual ones like Ringshifter, Autofilter and Spectral Gate. These are nice unusual effects to have in your toolbox.

Flex Time - I prefer it to Sonar's equivalent. 

Varispeed - I don't actually use it in projects, but it's quite handy for slowing down/rehearsing songs.

Scaled GUI - That's a huge one for me, working on a 13" MBP and Logic helps me make the most out of it. Even at hi res, there's still a lot of wasted screen space in X1. 

BUT

Freeze implementation - Sonar all the way. In Logic, a frozen clip is basically locked there. You can't do anything w/ it, not even copy it.

MIDI Plugins - Logic doesn't handle them. So if you want an arpeggiator, you have to create one in the Environment (not the most user friendly aspect of Logic). Plus, it won't arpeggiate unless you initiate playback.

Sonar has Clip-based effects. Logic doesn't.

Sonar has the Archive function. Logic doesn't (though you can work around it, I've always dug Archive).


These are a few things I can think of. Ultimately, you can do pretty much anything in either Sonar or Logic, and in many cases, getting to know your main application and the workarounds for its shortcomings levels the playing field. Meaning that if you've worked with Sonar for 5 or 10 years, it'll probably take a while before you're as quick in new app, no matter how better certain functionalities are implemented.

Rain, thanks so much for your detailed response. Reading through all of your pros and cons of Logic vs Sonar definitely makes me want to try out Logic for myself. The feature that you and Jim have both highlighted as being done better in Logic is comping, and I often end up getting frustrated with that in Sonar. It works quite well in general, however, if there are more than 3 lanes it seems to get a bit flaky for me. Weird things can happen from time to time, such as making a small edit of one clip undoing a whole bunch of other previous comping decisions. I think Sonar could use a little bit better layer management, and it would certainly be better if it reverted to a single composite layer after comping, which I think Logic does. Cross fades between selected portions of the audio should be user definable. (Using the ! editing tool is great for selecting the active take, but the transitions are abrupt. In Propellerhead's Record, which I have, the transitions all have little handles to control the fade in/fade out time and you can display the comp track after you've finished editing). 


I am also very interested in experimenting with flex time. I have always ended up being frustrated with Audio Snap. I have sometimes managed to map the grid to a performance that has been played in "free time" (i.e not to a click) to add drum loops  etc but it is usually a very tedious process. I am hoping flextime works better. That said I have invested too much time and money in Sonar to stop using it. As you say, I can often do things much more quickly in Sonar than Record or Reaper for example, simply because of familiarity.

Rain, thanks again. Those screen shots are awesome. I opened them in a new window and zoomed in to get a feel of what they would look like on a full screen. I upgraded to X1 so I am very familiar with it. I get the feeling that X1 was at least partly inspired from the Logic GUI. Especially the use of grey :) That's one of the things that has bugged me a bit about X1 because there is no longer the degree of colour customisation that I was used to in 8.5. Of course colour is not a deal breaker, and you can get used to anything. Strangely enough when I look at your Logic screen shots I don't think "ewww grey" which is what hit me with X1. I have used Panu's colour customisations to make X1 look more interesting to me. I think this is just an example of getting used to expectations. (I mean I had grown accustomed to being able to switch Sonar colours to match my mood, and when it went missing in X1 I felt I had lost something, but with Logic, it's all new, and I have very different expectations).

I'm getting OT again. The reason you posted the screen shots was to show the better use of screen real estate and I think that is very evident. Having a scale-able GUI would greatly benefit X1, so I expect it is coming. Meanwhile I have to admit I am drooling over Logic, which I will definitely get before long, and probably end up using along side my other audio apps to fill in gaps etc. Each of them seems to have some things they are good at, and areas where they become frustrating. 

By the way, another area that Logic seems to be better in is the Score view. I recently purchased a nice video tutorial  on song writing from Groove 3 by Eli Krantzberg. He's the same DAW guru that produced the Groove 3 "Sonar X1 Explained" videos (highly recommended). In the song-writing tutorial Eli uses Logic for the musical scores, and I was very impressed with the clarity and presentation. 

Rain


It's a good thing that you have different expectation, because, in all fairness, there really isn't much that you can do to customize Logic. Since version 8, it's is a sea of grey, w/ not much contrast, and I actually preferred earlier versions. But you get used to it. 

I know of one fellow offering customized version of the GUI, but in itself, Logic will let you decide of the arrange window and piano roll's background color and that's about it. Well, beside clips I mean. I never tried it as I stick to the default GUI. Works fine for me.

The score view is usually regarded as better than Sonar's, indeed, though some Logic users still prefer to opt for 3rd party solutions. I personally couldn't tell as I never use that feature.

Eli is a very knowledgeable and helpful folk. He's a regular poster on the old Logic User Group, always there to help. It was a surprise to see him on these forums when the Groove 3 vids came out - I had no idea he also used Sonar. But he definitely knows his stuff.

In terms or resource, there's also the Logic Pro forums, hosted by David Nahmani, author of the Apple Pro training book on Logic.

Just wanted to let you know I ended up getting a MacBook Pro and Logic Express. I got the 13" version, but with the faster CPU (2.7 GHz). I also got the Groove 3 bundle of Logic videos, as I was very impressed with their X1 vids and thought this would help me get a quick intro into Logic. I can now play with Logic while I wait for X1C to be released. Thanks a lot to everyone's help and suggestions.