Clip/waveform edit mode... with MIDI tracks? Is it possible??

My question may seem long and confusing, but please bear with me. This is very important for me and I appreciate everyone's help.

I'm assuming there is some kind of "clip edit view" or "waveform edit view" with which you can enter in and manually edit and finetune specific clips destructively, instead of just non-destructively by applying effects to tracks and clips in the multitrack view. Like, for example, if you have a piano clip that you want to add some very subtle reverb to permanently, or make volume tweaks in certain places in the clip permanently.

Now, how I usually do my music is in the following way. I'll create/compose a entire song using a MIDI composer program. Then I'll import that MIDI song file containing all the tracks (one for kick drum, one for piano, one for bass, etc) then start patching each track with VSTi's, effects, and so forth. Then when I am finished mixing, I can render the project into a nice, finalized wav song. But with this method, the oscillators in my VST synths run and produce the sounds each time I play my mix, so I don't have concrete/tangible wave files to edit and work with.

So here is my question. Is there a way to do what I mentioned up top - enter into a clip/waveform edit mode and manually edit and finetune - if I'm working with only midi tracks? I wouldn't imagine so, since the wave signals are actually being produced every time, right? If there is a way, how does it work? I can see from the following picture that wav tracks have actual waves you can tweak (tracks 4,5,6), but the MIDI tracks (1,2,3)... are just tracks with MIDI information in them:




What I used to do previously is have one project dedicated to patching MIDI's with instruments, then exporting each individual track to real instrument wavs, then making another project to do all the mixing and editing with those exported wav files. However, the exporting each individual track takes a while, and it's a hassle when you want to edit the instrument sounds afterwards. Because I have to close my mix project, open my instrument-patching project, change and export that one track, close that project, then open my mix project again, and import the new file. I'd rather be able to do everything at once in one project... Is it possible to do this with Sonar X1 Producer?

Here is what I mean by how the track view handles viewing.


Above is a "normal" track.



Above is a maximized track.  And it is not fully maxed.

@John:
Wow, you've explained to me a great deal in those two last posts John. Thanks for all your help.


In fact, I am glad that you say Sonar is good for non-destructive editing. In the end, that IS what I want. Like I mentioned in the original post, I WANT to have one project to handle everything - from beginnig to finish. Start with a MIDI composition, finish with a wav composition. Thus, so far so good.

But when I mentioned clip/waveform edit mode, I didnt mean that I was seeking that for the sole purpose of destructive editing. That's just one function for it, but the main reason I was asking was because of the way I source my tracks - using MIDIs. When I import a MIDI into a Sonar project, the track will not show waves like in your second post reply, of course, because it is MIDI and not a wav. I think there are a lot of advantages to being able to see your clips in waveform. You can spot out the parts of the clip where there are wave irregularities, such as random volume peaks. And when you see these things, then you can go about with the solution - whether it be destructively lowering that one wave irregularity, or fixing it with like a volume envelope or whatever. By when your working direction from midi->output, without seeing the wav it is creating in the track, it's a little bit... difficult. You just see midi lines (those dashes that represent a MIDI note) in the clip... no waves.

I suppose this is what the "bounce to track" feature you mention is for. Though I'm not sure exactly how that works, I'm assuming it more or less exports the track with all its effects and instruments to a wav?

And on another somewhat relevant note, is it possible to apply effects/VSTi's to different individual clips within a particular track? Instead of apply the effects/VSTi's to the entire track which would affect every clip in the track? Like let's say you have a certain wave file, say Drums.wav, and you chop it up and put bits and pieces of it in a track. Can you apply effects to individual of those tracks without affecting the other ones?

Thanks again in advance for the help.

rbowser

vaultwit


...Is there a way to do what I mentioned up top - enter into a clip/waveform edit mode and manually edit and finetune - if I'm working with only midi tracks? I wouldn't imagine so, since the wave signals are actually being produced every time, right? If there is a way, how does it work?.

..What I used to do previously is have one project dedicated to patching MIDI's with instruments, then exporting each individual track to real instrument wavs, then making another project to do all the mixing and editing with those exported wav files. However, the exporting each individual track takes a while, and it's a hassle when you want to edit the instrument sounds afterwards. Because I have to close my mix project, open my instrument-patching project, change and export that one track, close that project, then open my mix project again, and import the new file. I'd rather be able to do everything at once in one project... Is it possible to do this with Sonar X1 Producer?

Hi, Vaultwit - I understand your need for wanting to work with wave forms you can see, so you can work with them.  The method you've described is very round-about and time consuming, though.

To answer you directly - "I'd rather be able to everything at once in one project"--Yes, of course.  What you're not doing is bouncing your MIDI tracks to audio inside the same project, so you have wave forms to work with, just like any other audio in your project.

It sounds like you don't know about bouncing--?  That's selecting the MIDI track and the associated audio track, and choosing Bounce - in seconds you have an audio recording, just as if you had set up a mike to record a guitar, drums, any other acoustic instrument.  You'll be be able to zoom in, see exactly what you're working with.

You don't need to do destructive editing in most cases.  If there are peaks to be tamed, that's where volume envelopes come in.  If there are bits you decide not to use, either take the envelope all the way down, or "delete" them--understanding that what you've supposedly deleted is actually always still there if you change your mind - you just drag the clip out again to fill that gap.

And so on.

I could say more - But what you want to do has been available in Sonar for many generations of the software now.--I hope my brief intro helped some.

Randy B.

You have very much answered my question the best way I could have wanted. I appreciate that a lot.


You're right - I did NOT know what Bounce was before, and now that I do, I feel better about the whole topic. And I totally see what you mean with "delete them--understanding that what you've supposedly deleted is actually always still there if you change your mind." I guess I just didn't think about it that way previously.

My only concern about the whole "non-destructive editing is all you need" vibe I got from your post was the following: the wave you see in the clip after non destructive editing will not reflect what you hear. Or am I completely mistaken? Here:

Hope this isnt too confusing, please hear me out: lets say I have a clip, and I non-destructively add a delay effect to it. Thus, when the original portion of the sound clip ends, there is some delay left over that you can hear fade away. Like delay on vocals...."Hello-lo-lo-lo-lo"...and it fades away. Do you SEE those trailing delay parts in the wav? Or do you only see the original waveform (though you hear the delay when you playback)? If you do see it, that's awesome, my problem is happily solved. If not... I think that would bother me.

An even better example is compression. Lets take vocals agian, since vocal compression is so important. You have a freshly recorded vocal clip, with volume levels all over the place. If you were to destructively compress that vocal clip, from that point forward, you will always see the nice, linear, consistant-volumed, compressed vocal track instead of the fresh recording with wild volume levels. If I record a vocal clip on Sonar, then apply a NON-destructive vocal compression over it, will I see the resulting waveform? Let's go even broader--if put a volume envelope over a track, will I SEE the waveform shrink where I lower the volume with the envelope?

Again, if the answer to all of that is YES, I will happily go my way and be satisfied. But if the answer is no, and I don't see the resulting waveform after applying the non-destructive effects... well, it'll be hard since I will see the wave in its original state, but hear a completely different, manipulated wave...

That is the only concern I had with destructive/non-destructive editing.

I hope that wasn't too confusing, and yeah. Thanks in advance for taking the time to help me out. I really really do appreciate it!

My only concern about the whole "non-destructive editing is all you need" vibe I got from your post was the following: the wave you see in the clip after non destructive editing will not reflect what you hear. Or am I completely mistaken? Here:

You do get what you see. What is still there is the underlying wave in the audio folder. This can be brought back in anytime.

I suppose this is what the "bounce to track" feature you mention is for. Though I'm not sure exactly how that works, I'm assuming it more or less exports the track with all its effects and instruments to a wav?

Bouncing is a way to make the edits permanent. Thats all. It has other uses and options too.

They will be lost if you unfreeze a track. Unfreezing goes back to the state before the freeze. This works on both audio and MIDI.

It would be like deleting a bounced track that was bounced to a new track. The original track from where the new bounced track comes from is still there. The same with MIDI only there is no audio but MIDI data to go back to.

Its a lot simpler to do then it is to talk about. 

Great post Randy.

Between the two of us we may just crack this nut call X1.

Hello again, Vaultwit - Trying to keep my reply as simple as possible.-- It sounds like something you'll like is "Waveform Preview."

Every track in a project is going to at least one bus - the Master.  All the buses have available a "Waveform Preview" - it's the third button from the left in the track header.  There's M(ute) S(olo) and then an icon which logically shows the image of a wave.  If you activate that, then as you play a project, the wave form will be drawn as it's sounding your project - FX and all.  You can't edit that --it's just an image, but at least you can see exactly what you showed in your screen shots.  If it's a compressed vocal track you want to see, you'll see it.

Bet you'll like that.

---but once you delve in more, I know you'll find the advantage of Not seeing the effects of your FX.  You'll get to a point where you'll really need to see what the for-real original recording is like, unadulterated, and use your ears for what's happening when you apply FX.

RB

Awesome. Thanks you guys for helping me out, it's good to know there's an awesome community that's so willing to help. I will continue to watch more tutorial videos and try to get the hang of it more