Stereo positioning problems in export

Hi folks.
 
I am having an interesting issue when exporting my final mix from Cakewalk.
Everything sounds how I want it in final, but gets 'changed' in the exported audio file.
 
In particular the stereo positioning gets altered dramatically and it is this I am confused about.
I keep coming back to the idea that it is something I am doing wrong or just don't understand... my motto is that "Everyday is a school day" - so am willing to learn/admit my mistakes... just need some guidance ;-)
 
So I have 12 tracks of audio... usual stuff, drums, keyboard, guitar, bass and 4 vocals.
On the final I am using the Vintage Channel VC64 and have the preset "Much more room" selected with no further tweaks.
This preset effectively widens the stereo image.
 
What I am finding is that the stereo positioning of everything is fine when playing back in Cakewalk, but after export the stereo positioning is MUCH narrower and sounds dull.
 
I have also tried bouncing the final mix into a fresh audio track in the project (which plays fine) but if then export this track alone it suffers the same problem with stereo positioning.
 
Export is using Lame MP3 encoder in VBR mode. Quality I have varied from highest (0) to middle (5).
 
Have I mis-understood something here?  Is it me ?!
 
kind regards
Dave
 
[Cakewalk v8.0. Windows XP SP3 32bit. INTEL Core i5-760 2.80Ghz. 4Gb DDR3 RAM.
 
 
 

I have setup an encoder for Lame via the external encoder wizard.

The only differences I can see between your screen and mine are :-

Source Category = Master (which is the bus I have the VC64 installed as an FX)
Sample Rate = 96000
Bit Depth = 24

64-bit Engine is not ticked.
Dithering = Triangle

I have also tried Main Outs and Entire mix with same result.

I just tried MP3 16bit & 44.1Khz with same result.
I have also tried outputting to WAVE with the same result.

It is as if the VC64 is not working when exporting, yet if I listen to the mix normally then it is fine.

The exports are definately not mono... I can hear some stereo separation, but not what I had in the mix. 

Infact, Beagle I think you might be onto something.  If I turn off the VC64, then the mix is the same as the export.
Therefore that implies that the VC64 is not being added to the export somehow.

Mmm....

Just a test you could try is to create a dry mix down of the song via bounce, then highlight the track, and use process/ audio efx and directly render( apply) the efx and see what happens. I was thinking your problem was MP3 export as MP3 will trash the stereo image at lower settings, but you said you tried a wave so.

I would double check that you don't have any tracks or buses other than the Master bus routed directly to your audio device. And to be clear, you have the VC-64 in the FX bin of the Master Bus? If all you're using the VC-64 in the Master bus for is stereo widening maybe you could try another plug-in for that purpose and see if you have the same problem. I like the Sheppi Free Spacial Enhancer. http://dallashodgson.info...s/OpenAmbienceProject/

If you export to a wave file as well as to an MP3, and then bring both up in Windows Media Player, do they sound the same?

What does the MP3 sound like if you import it back into SONAR and play it?

Does the MP3 sound the same on a portable player as it does through WMP?

What I'm getting at is isolating the problem: is it with the MP3 encoding, the export, or the routing within SONAR?

Going just by the odds, odds are that Chappel is on the right track with it being a routing issue.

So does this mean that regardless of my encoding, depending upon 'how' the user is playing back the MP3 depends upon its quality and representation of my mix ???  

of course.  that's always the case.

not necessarily.  each device can "interpret" stereo signals the way it is designed.  you'd think that would be pretty cut and dried, just separate the channels and send them to the separate outputs, but cheaply made devices might not separate the channels well.
 
plus - on your onboard soundcard - that could easily be done with the 'enhancements' they have in the software as well.  depending on the "room setting" or other processing.  like some of the soundmax software comes with presets for "narrow width" or other room separation and EQ, compression and aural excitement type settings.

I'm beginning to wonder if this is an issue with my motherboard audio setup or fault....

I have now tried the MP3 on a couple of other PC's with lesser quality on board sound chips than mine, yet they keep the stereo image as I intended and playback is far better.

Mmm.... more head scratching 

I think we can consider this thread closed now...  I'll report back if I find anything specific regarding setup.fault with the on board HD audio.

Once again, thanks everyone for your help and input.

Dave

Hi Bristol_Jonesey

I have managed to prove the problem is outside of CakeWalk.  

Using Audacity...
If play the MP3 via my EMU0404 card, then it is fine.  
If I then play the same MP3 via the on board sound card, then the problem occur.

Has to be something to do with the HD audio on this Asus motherboard. 
I have confirmed the cabling etc is correct.

To be honest, I am not too worried now as I can check the MP3 using Audacity which I can easily select my output device for playback.

Thanks for the comments though.

Good troubleshooting, Dave. I wish everybody were as methodical as you, it would make trying to help them much more satisfying.

If it makes you feel any better, that VIA interface has only recently been adopted by ASUS and is not the most common integrated audio device out there. Far more ubiquitous are the RealTek and Conexant devices, which, although also notoriously low-end, perform better than the VIA. (So congratulations, you actually managed to find something worse than a RealTek - I didn't think that was even possible :)

bitFlipper - thanks for the praise.  I guess me being in IT helps in diagnosis.  Glad I've found something worse than Realtek ;-)

Chappel, you're right - I could install a better sound card, but as the EMU0404 can be selected for playback in Audacity, that will suffice for my needs.  Good idea though.

Well I think that wraps it up folks.

Cheers all.

Dave