vaultwit
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Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
Hello, I have two MIDI tracks routed to the same synth. This is because I want both midi tracks to play the same exact type of sound from the same synth. However, I want to lower the volume of just ONE of those midi tracks, so that the other one is louder. How can I do this?
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brundlefly
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/02 16:04:58
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If the synth has only one output, your only option short of creating a second instance of the synth is to lower the velocity of the notes in the one track, either by destructive editing, or by using a velocity offset (called MIDI Gain in X1, now), which should have the effect of lowering their volume, although it may also change the timbre, depending on the synth/patch used, which you might or might not find desirable.
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vaultwit
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/02 16:09:06
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brundlefly
by using a velocity offset (called MIDI Gain in X1, now)
What is this exactly, and where can I find it? Is it a MIDI effect?
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brundlefly
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/02 16:12:10
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In the MIDI track header, the Widget is labled Vel+. In the Track Inspector, it's a knob at the top called Gain. It applies an offset to the existing velocities.
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John
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/02 16:13:50
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How about using expression CC11?
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vaultwit
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/02 16:15:52
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brundlefly
In the MIDI track header, the Widget is labled Vel+. In the Track Inspector, it's a knob at the top called Gain. It applies an offset to the existing velocities.
I don't know of this behavior is normal or not, but that option (the gain knob/velocity widget) does not change the volume, but rather turns the playback on/off. I'll explain: When I start decreasing it from zero (to lower the volume) nothing happens. And when I pass -108, the that track stops playing. So -109 = no sound and -108 = sound. Am I doing something wrong?
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brundlefly
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/02 17:52:49
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What synth/patch? Sounds like it does not respond to MIDI velocity until it hits 0, and then it gives you no sound. Are the event velocities in the track all at 109? Does this synth otherwise respond to variable velocities?
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brundlefly
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/02 17:57:53
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John
How about using expression CC11? Expression is going to have the same problem as MIDI volume if the synth has only one voice/output, unless there are no overlapping notes, and you send an Expression/Volume value for every note.
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John
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/02 18:07:23
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Well expression is also know as note volume.
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brundlefly
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/02 18:21:56
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Call it what you want, but like Volume, it's operating on the output level of the synth/channel, so the most recently received message will affect all sounding notes on that synth/channel. As I said, if there's no overlap, you could conceivably alternate Expression levels between the two tracks, but it would be a lot of work.
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vaultwit
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/02 18:51:20
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I am using Z3TA+, that came with the SOnar
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brundlefly
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/02 18:54:15
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Your own patch, or a preset? If a preset, which one? if your own patch, did you setup up velocity response?
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vaultwit
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/02 18:59:49
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brundlefly
Your own patch, or a preset? If a preset, which one? if your own patch, did you setup up velocity response?
Well I used a preset and tweaked it to make it my own patch. How do I know if velocity response is set up?
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brundlefly
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/02 19:36:40
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Well, I'm embarrassed to admit that a quick perusal of Z3ta's interface and Help did not reveal where the velocity response is set. Normally it would be in the Amp Envelope section somewhere, but I'm not finding it. If you started with a patch that responds to velociity, as the great majority should, it's unlikely you would have changed that without knowing it. But I can't think of any other explanation for the Velocity Offset behavior you described. 
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John
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/02 19:42:33
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I think I am not explaining this well. Each track could have its own MIDI expression drawn in to give those notes their own volume. Because it is working on each note it shouldn't matter that some have a different value. Meaning the notes on track one would have their value and track two would have its. I don't know if this will work but it just may.
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brundlefly
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/02 22:29:00
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John
I think I am not explaining this well. Each track could have its own MIDI expression drawn in to give those notes their own volume. Because it is working on each note it shouldn't matter that some have a different value. Meaning the notes on track one would have their value and track two would have its. I don't know if this will work but it just may.
I think you're explaining okay, but I don't know of any synth that can respond to Expression the way you're describing. Imagine you have two notes that overlap in time. It doesn't matter whether they're on the same or different tracks. If the synth sounding those two notes receives an Expression message from either track, the volume of both notes will change. Expression affects all notes on the channel driving the synth. It's only "note volume" to the extent that it's frequently used with monophonic parts that have no overlapping notes.
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John
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/02 22:31:21
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I was afraid you would say that.
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vaultwit
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/03 00:52:05
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So is the ultimate answer "no" and that I can't accomplish this?
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brundlefly
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/03 01:03:04
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Velocity editing or offset is the only way to do it with one synth, and it should work. I'd still kind of like to understand why it's not in your case, but inserting a second instance of the synth for the other track to use is an easy way to solve the problem.
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rbowser
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/03 02:07:05
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---Firefox 6.1 is apparently preventing me either quoting from posts, or even formatting my replies--no paragraph breaks! grrrrrrrrrr. "..Hello, I have two MIDI tracks routed to the same synth. This is because I want both midi tracks to play the same exact type of sound from the same synth. However, I want to lower the volume of just ONE of those midi tracks, so that the other one is louder. How can I do this?..." You need to have two instances of the same synth. The MIDI data from the two MIDI tracks will just wrestle with each other if you're directing them to the same instrument/sound in a synth. Makes sense, yes? So, have one track dedicated to one instance of the synth, and the other to another instance. No conflicts. RB
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vaultwit
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/03 04:14:05
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Yes I know I can just put two instances of the synth, and have each MIDI routed to each synth instance.
However, that defeats the whole point of what I'm trying to do. I want both MIDI's to be routed to the SAME synth so that whatever edits and tweaks I make to the synth, it will affect both MIDIs.
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brundlefly
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/03 11:29:55
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I want both MIDI's to be routed to the SAME synth so that whatever edits and tweaks I make to the synth, it will affect both MIDIs. I figured as much. I also figured out how to get velocity response out of Z3ta. It turns out almost no patches have it enabled for some reason. What you need to do is go to the Modulation section at the bottom, and set the following values for Source, Range, Curve, Control and Destination: ON ||||||||||||||||||||||||| U-Lin+ VELOC ALL OSC LEVEL Then your velocity offset (a.k.a. MIDI Gain) will work.
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vaultwit
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/03 14:56:28
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brundlefly
I want both MIDI's to be routed to the SAME synth so that whatever edits and tweaks I make to the synth, it will affect both MIDIs.
I figured as much. I also figured out how to get velocity response out of Z3ta. It turns out almost no patches have it enabled for some reason. What you need to do is go to the Modulation section at the bottom, and set the following values for Source, Range, Curve, Control and Destination:
ON ||||||||||||||||||||||||| U-Lin+ VELOC ALL OSC LEVEL
Then your velocity offset (a.k.a. MIDI Gain) will work.
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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bitflipper
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/03 19:11:19
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Yes I know I can just put two instances of the synth, and have each MIDI routed to each synth instance. However, that defeats the whole point of what I'm trying to do. I want both MIDI's to be routed to the SAME synth so that whatever edits and tweaks I make to the synth, it will affect both MIDIs. Linked clips is the answer to this dilemma.
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brundlefly
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/04 01:27:18
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bitflipper
Yes I know I can just put two instances of the synth, and have each MIDI routed to each synth instance. However, that defeats the whole point of what I'm trying to do. I want both MIDI's to be routed to the SAME synth so that whatever edits and tweaks I make to the synth, it will affect both MIDIs.
Linked clips is the answer to this dilemma. Linked clips address the challenge of driving two different synths with the same track, and keeping the MIDI edits synced. The OP is wanting to do the opposite - drive a single synth with two separate tracks, because there's no good way to keep the patches on two synths synced as you make changes - at least not in real time. I suppose you could continually re-save a preset in one, and reload it into the other.
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rbowser
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/04 01:42:25
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Vaultwit - You've gotten a lot of thoughtful input on your original question. The reason for all the slightly tentative suggestions is because we're all wondering what it is exactly that you're trying to accomplish.
Is it an experiment in expanding the stereo field? I think maybe that's what you're after, since you're wanting the exact same synth patch to be driven by two exact MIDI files which only differ in that one has the volume lower than the other. Like maybe you're picturing these two versions panned differently--? If so, I can pretty much guarantee you the experiment won't work.
I'm sure there are more MIDI vistas for me to explore, but after 20 years of working with MIDI, I can't recall ever wanting what you seem to be asking for.
It would be helpful if you could describe the Result you're after - because it's possible that the way you're going about it isn't actually the best way, and if we understood the result you're after, we may be able to offer more productive things for you to try.
RB
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brundlefly
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/04 01:55:23
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driven by two exact MIDI files which only differ in that one has the volume lower than the other. Maybe I missed something, but I didn't get that. My understanding was different MIDI parts playing the same synth.
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rbowser
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/04 02:07:51
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brundlefly
driven by two exact MIDI files which only differ in that one has the volume lower than the other.
Maybe I missed something, but I didn't get that. My understanding was different MIDI parts playing the same synth.
You're right, Brundle--that may be what the OP is wanting to do--Like Bitflipper, who also thought maybe linked clips was the answer--I thought maybe the same data was in both tracks. Honestly---I'm not sure what's trying to be accomplished.--As I said, after 20 some years of using MIDI, I've never wanted/needed what Vaultwit seems to be asking for. I think we might be misunderstanding his needs--so hopefully we'll get a clarification. Randy B.
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vaultwit
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Re:Adjusting volume for ONE of the two midi tracks routed to a single synth?
2011/09/04 03:30:04
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brundlefly
driven by two exact MIDI files which only differ in that one has the volume lower than the other.
Maybe I missed something, but I didn't get that. My understanding was different MIDI parts playing the same synth.
You are correct, different MIDI parts playing the same synth is what I was after. I don't know why anyone would put two of the same MIDI to the same synth, that would just literally be doubling the sound. I have two MIDI tracks containg different MIDI clips, and would like them both to go to the same synth but have different volumes. I do this alot. In this particular case, I have one main melodic MIDI line in one track, and the harmony in another track. I want the harmony to be very subtle, hence the lower volume, but want both the melody and harmony to play the exact same type of sound (hence both routed to the same synth). Hope this clears things up.
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