MIDI Latency Problem?

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LloydJ
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2011/09/13 18:57:33 (permalink)

MIDI Latency Problem?

Heya folks, hoping someone might have an idea on how to solve a playback issue.
 
I'm using X1 Producer, adding Kontakt 4 as a SoftSynth, then loading Prominy SC Guitar into it.
 
Everything seems to load perfectly, but there appears to be a Signalling/Timing problem with the Midi data, I believe.
 
The low registry keys (C#0 to C#1 roughly) change the performance style, so Stacatto/Legato and so forth. If I add a performance change key on the first sounding note that requires it, it doesn't always register, instead often the following sounding note has the applied performance change - so it's operating late.
 
In fact, even if I apply the performance change a 16th note before the first note requiring the new style, it can still fail to apply in time.
 
This is all done in the Piano Roll view, and when dealing with a stream of notes, it's impossible to place the Performance Change key early enough with any degree of accuracy.
 
The Guitar is a big 64Gb data job, but it's running off a SATA RAID Stripe.
 
I have an Asus Xonar 7.1 sound card, which only seems to offer one type of "Midi Platform" (Like, ASIO isn't available, just WASAPI I think) which lists some typical latency times I should expect. If it helps knowing those numbers, I can load up and check.
 
But if I'm hitting way off the mark here, is there any other possible causes?
 
I do have loaded another few instruments, not as a large though, performing at the same time. Guitar Rig and PercussionStrip64 or whatever is also operating. I've watched my CPU/Memory performance when it's playing back and I'm ~800Mb shy of maxing out my 6Gb RAM, so there is some "room", and my CPU doesn't max out.
 
Thanks for any help! :)
 
PS: As a new user to X1, I'm really enjoying the software! Fairly intuitive, and I'm not a DAW Guru at all.

OS: Windows 7 Pro 64bit / CPU: AMD Phenom II X6 1055T / Mobo: ASUS M4N72-E nForce 750a / RAM: 8Gb OCZ DDR2 800Mhz / GPU: Asus GTX260 GL+ / Audio: Asus Xonar DX 7.1 / Speakers: Creative Inspire T3100 2.1 / Instrument: Yamaha MM6 / Software: SPLAT
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    brundlefly
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    Re:MIDI Latency Problem? 2011/09/13 23:19:24 (permalink)

    The Guitar is a big 64Gb data job



    I'd be checking with the synth vendor or their forum. If the synth has to load new samples from disk to respond to a keyswitch, It could well take a significant amount of time to do that.


    If there's anything in SONAR that would have a bearing, it would be the value of the Prepare Using buffer in Preferences > MIDI > Playback and Recording. The usual recommended value for this is 500ms, which should be more than enough for SONAR to "see the keyswitch coming", and get the necessary samples loaded, but it still might depend on the how the synth is coded



    post edited by brundlefly - 2011/09/13 23:20:35

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    inaheartbeat
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    Re:MIDI Latency Problem? 2011/09/14 07:53:28 (permalink)
    Instead of trying to do the program change in mid stream why not just create a different track for the different program change? If need be, you can record all the midi data in the initial stream with the first program change and clone the events into the new track. Just eliminate the notes in the second track associated with first program change and you should be good to go. You might want to do this anyway since you then have more flexibility in processing the way the sounds sit together.

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:MIDI Latency Problem? 2011/09/14 08:00:08 (permalink)
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    Not exactly what I would recommend that you use for audio on any Cakewalk product. 


    It might be an "upgrade" from the stock sound card but it's not a "Professional level audio card" of the kind you need to use with music software like Sonar.


    Check into the USB based interfaces offered by the big MUSIC STORES in your town or online. It needs to be a dedicated Audio/MIDI interface to be able to handle the massive data and processing needed to run the softsynths in real time without latency.
    post edited by Guitarhacker - 2011/09/14 08:02:04

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    brundlefly
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    Re:MIDI Latency Problem? 2011/09/14 11:52:39 (permalink)
    GuitarhackerIt needs to be a dedicated Audio/MIDI interface to be able to handle the massive data and processing needed to run the softsynths in real time without latency.



    While a higher-quality interface is strongly preferred for other reasons, all the load in this case is within SONAR and O/S subsystems. Audio interface and driver quality should have no bearing.

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:MIDI Latency Problem? 2011/09/14 13:24:07 (permalink)
    brundlefly


    Guitarhacker
    It needs to be a dedicated Audio/MIDI interface to be able to handle the massive data and processing needed to run the softsynths in real time without latency.



    While a higher-quality interface is strongly preferred for other reasons, all the load in this case is within SONAR and O/S subsystems. Audio interface and driver quality should have no bearing.

    The whole point was not about where the data gets processed, but that it does in fact get processed in a timely manner so the softsynths run in real time....and that, to my experience, happens better with a dedicated Audio card specifically designed to handle the load that Cake puts on the card.  


    A gamer card is not ideal for music recording and playback and  several softsynths running in real time. 

    My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

    MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW   
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    brundlefly
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    Re:MIDI Latency Problem? 2011/09/14 13:40:50 (permalink)

    The whole point was not about where the data gets processed, but that it does in fact get processed in a timely manner so the softsynths run in real time.



    My point is that the softsynths run in SONAR, the MIDI is all within SONAR (in this case), and all the interface is seeing is a single stereo digital audio stream that its D/A converters need to convert to analog. The interface's job is no different in this case than when playing back a single recorded audio track.


    If the wrong sample is present in the datastream, that can't be attributed to the audio interface. Something went wrong in the rendering of the audio long before the interface driver was called to take delivery of it.





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    LloydJ
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    Re:MIDI Latency Problem? 2011/09/15 12:23:17 (permalink)
    I apologise for taking an age to reply!
     
    "If there's anything in SONAR that would have a bearing, it would be the value of the Prepare Using buffer in Preferences > MIDI > Playback and Recording"
    Hey there brundlefly, thanks for your response!
     
    I noticed the default setting was 250ms, and changed it to 500ms. Unfortunately it has failed to reduce the problem.
     
    Regarding external USB Sound devices, I realise my current internal sound card isn't ideal. Based on how to the too-and-fro debate went, I guess I shouldn't seek to purchase a new device?
     
    If it's still wise for reasons other then possibly improving timing issues and would still be a recommended worth while purchase, it'd be nice to know. I only use a USB Midi Keyboard for input, no actual "Analogue line" real instruments being fed in mind.
     
    inaheartbeat, I'd like to try your suggestion. To clarify, you mean instead of adding the Low registry keys to the track containing the actual sounding notes, carry them over to a seperate track? I'll give it a whirl!
     
    Or as you continue to say, possibly have 5-6 tracks, each containing notes only of a specific performance style? Not sure I understand how that can offer greater flexibility, but then again, I'm a newbie XD
     
    I have a lot to learn! Thanks so much for your support.
     
    Edit: Good lord, this Forum software is going to be the end of me, I dunno how you guys get on with it. I'm using IE8 just to post, because FireFox v7 (Albeit beta, I realise) just doesn't get on any better. Gah! If my post doesn't retain it's paragraph spacing, I will nerd rage ¬_¬
    post edited by LloydJ - 2011/09/15 12:26:26
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    brundlefly
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    Re:MIDI Latency Problem? 2011/09/15 14:11:38 (permalink)
    LloydJ

    Regarding external USB Sound devices, I realise my current internal sound card isn't ideal. Based on how to the too-and-fro debate went, I guess I shouldn't seek to purchase a new device?
     
    If it's still wise for reasons other then possibly improving timing issues and would still be a recommended worth while purchase, it'd be nice to know. I only use a USB Midi Keyboard for input, no actual "Analogue line" real instruments being fed in mind.
    If you don't use any analog inputs, that makes having a better soundcard less of a priority, but there are still advantages to having a better interface. The main ones being lower output latency for rehearsing and recording with soft synths, and better output sound quality (due mostly to lower analog noise in the output section, but maybe also to higher quality D/A converters and lower clock jitter). Also, the overall stability and performance of the drivers is likely to be better, and if you ever run into problems, you'll find more members on the forum who have first-hand experience with the interface to help you troubleshoot.


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    LloydJ
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    Re:MIDI Latency Problem? 2011/09/15 14:36:54 (permalink)
    brundlefly

    If you don't use any analog inputs, that makes having a better soundcard less of a priority, but there are still advantages to having a better interface. The main ones being lower output latency for rehearsing and recording with soft synths, and better output sound quality (due mostly to lower analog noise in the output section, but maybe also to higher quality D/A converters and lower clock jitter). Also, the overall stability and performance of the drivers is likely to be better, and if you ever run into problems, you'll find more members on the forum who have first-hand experience with the interface to help you troubleshoot.
    Ah, enlightening stuff! Thanks for sharing your wisdom :D Not a big priority presently speaking, but ya never know what's ahead. 
      
    Regarding the original problem, I dropped Prominy an email a couple of hours ago. They are based in Japan (Woot!), and in view of there excellent English website section, I'm sure they can provide some fine support. For now, I will tolerate it, and just keep working on the music. If we work out a solution, I'll be sure to mention it here. 
      
    Many thanks, LloydJ
    Edit: Very fast reply from Prominy, sadly I couldn't return the favour in speed but did pass the thanks on today. Anyways, the problem is fixed. "WASAPI" Audio Device driver selection was the problem. I changed the Sonar Preferences to the recommended "ASIO" platform. Interestingly they suggest avoiding; ASIO DirectX, ASIO4ALL (one I've heard mentioned a lot), MME and another random named one.
     
    They also recommended checking the latency settings of the said audio interface, my default ASIO settings are 10ms with 16bit depth, which seems to work just fine. And also, specifically applied to Prominy software since it's so outrageously massive, checking the Kontakt preload buffer size, the default is way too large and RAM Memory hogs, and should be adjusted to approximately 12.
    post edited by LloydJ - 2011/09/18 16:11:30

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