jamesyoyo


Like Danny, I am of two minds with X1.

There are a few things that make my work easier, more creative, better results. Then there are some things that just seem so ridiculously bass-ackwards from the way the program has worked for years, so there is a steep learning curve that at times I don't think was worth it.

There are still some stupid bugs/programatic choices they made (who can ever tell the difference!) that drive me batty.

It does seem to run easier on the processor.

The ProChannel is nice, but it is what it is...I have third party plugs that simply blow it away. The Saturation is good.

The drag and drop is cool though at times I simply cannot do it with a midi loop, for reasons beyond me.

Never created an effects chain...not sure why that is so popular...as all my tweaked settings are saved as presets in the VST...maybe it saves a few seconds.

Welcome back.

Thanks for the WB James,

Those that have ever set up a Combinator in Reason will already know how useful a recallable multi-effect preset container can be.  It simply becomes more useful than just the sum of its parts.

To have that functionality in Sonar to work with generic VST's and provided it is implemented right, I'm confident you'll be knocked out by the flexibility this feature alone will provide.

Hmm... but.. How much cost the UAD, SSL or Waves plugin? I think it is more then a few dollar right? Can you really compare a dedicated and very expensive plugin to a (relatively) cheaper general part of the PC? 
 
Would you accept a huge price increase of Sonar if you incorporate the same quality level plugins in the PC? And how many people can afford Sonar any longer if all the stuff would be at (very) expensive high-quality?

Imagine what would be the price of Sonar by adding very expensive parts to the PC? $800, $1000, $1500 or even more?

The bottom line is, the product has to stay affordable. If Sonar is getting too expensive just by making the whole PC of the same quality of a Waves or UAD plugins, I guess everybody here would up in arms. Not saying it would not be nice, only saying that it would add dramatically in the cost of Sonar.

Anyway - Liking or disliking X1 is strictly personal (as have been shown over and over again here). For me - it fits in my style of working. I never liked the older version of Sonar that much. For others it is a nightmare. That is the way it is. You can argue about it until everybody turns blue, but at the end of the day there is only one that can decide if X1 is worth using it, ant that is the end user itself. In my case it is worth it, in somebody's other case not. That's the way it is...

Fact is - there is no way back to the "old" 8.5, and I think everybody here knows that. Only a steady improvement of the present program. Just keep those feature requests coming. And as a side remark.. I like the "add-on" switch that is made. It gives the developers the time to improve the program, while there is still a income from the sales to the people that think the add-on(s) are worthwhile.

JClosed, a few answers for you...in my opinion of course.

Hmm... but.. How much cost the UAD, SSL or Waves plugin? I think it is more then a few dollar right? Can you really compare a dedicated and very expensive plugin to a (relatively) cheaper general part of the PC?

UAD and Waves are very pricey, yes. Can I compare, sure...why not? If it has a similar name, that makes it open season to compare, right? I would think that's human nature to compare for yourself if you had both and I'd be willing to bet several of us that can compare, HAVE compared. :)  

Would you accept a huge price increase of Sonar if you incorporate the same quality level plugins in the PC? And how many people can afford Sonar any longer if all the stuff would be at (very) expensive high-quality?

No I would not. The difference there is, I had a choice to purchase UAD and Waves. They weren't included in something I had purchased already...and because I have both UAD and Waves, if Sonar raised prices to incorporate said plugins, I'd not purchase it. See, without owning the said plugs, you're missing the point. I can assure you, if you ran a UAD plug as opposed to a stock Sonar plug, your fidelity increases ten-fold. UAD plugs have things that most digital plugs do not have. Character, tonal coloration, dial/knob sensitivity...trust me, there's a major difference. You get what you pay for with the high end stuff. With Waves, not as much as UAD...but some of the Waves stuff is really good. Some of the other Waves stuff, can't even hang with the Sonitus suite. But UAD, nothing compares to their stuff in my experience.

Imagine what would be the price of Sonar by adding very expensive parts to the PC? $800, $1000, $1500 or even more?

Again, no one is asking for that. With the plugs we buy, we have a choice. That choice improves fidelity over any stock Sonar plug as well as Reaper, Cubase, Nuendo, Pro Tools, Logic, Ableton or any other DAW you want to name. 

The bottom line is, the product has to stay affordable. If Sonar is getting too expensive just by making the whole PC of the same quality of a Waves or UAD plugins, I guess everybody here would up in arms. Not saying it would not be nice, only saying that it would add dramatically in the cost of Sonar.

Actually I will have to peacefully disagree with you. I'd rather have stability and not wait nearly 8 months to have a stable working version of software that has annoyed me since day one. Affordability is important, but having things working as they should is worth more money...hands down. When Sonar 8 came out and made me upset enough to start searching for new DAW software, it was then I made up my mind that I wouldn't care if something cost 3 times more to be more stable. What happens is, they make it SO affordable, you almost can't pass up on the purchase only to find out there will be a waiting game until all the stuff is sorted out. Seriously, aren't people tired of this? Every year it goes on...and on....and on...and then next year, we get all this hype and then more let-downs. Ok, the people let down like myself may be in the minority. That still doesn't mean we're not important. Most of us have been buying into this company since the product came out on floppy disk. Our opinions matter more than the one time fly and buy that will buy another DAW next year that isn't Sonar....but I digress.

-Danny

Well - I do not disagree with you Danny. In your case you have troubles with stability, so of coarse you have and can say something about that. I only said that in MY case X1 was stable and adequate. Nothing more- nothing less.

Granted - I am not a user from day one. I only have used Sonar from verson 6 onwards (skipped version 7), but like I said - if X1 is usable or not is just for the end user to decide. In my case it is, and in your case it is not. I am also an end user, but not the same type as you are. Maybe your opinion has more weight, but that does not should no make my opinion completely useless (I hope)..

I would like to see X1 improved so you have a stable system too, believe me.  But this thread is not about your stability (although it is important and could be handled in a seperate thread), but if jonbouy sould or should not upgrade- or at least work some time with X1. I think everybody should give X1 a fair chance and not let the remarks here put them off. If X1 is not what they want, there is still a very usable Sonar 8.5, or even other DAW's to consider. Nothing wrong with that.

Oh - and about the plugins. I was just reacting on the remarks from backwoods that the PC is inferior to the UAD etc. plugins. And I absolutely do not disagree with that, but only said it is too expensive to deliver Sonar with a PC loaded with Wave or UAD grade "plugins". The PC is mainly for people (like me sadly) that are not wealthy enough to buy this expensive add-ons. The people that do have those, can bypass the PC without a problem.

JClosed


Well - I do not disagree with you Danny. In your case you have troubles with stability, so of coarse you have and can say something about that. I only said that in MY case X1 was stable and adequate. Nothing more- nothing less.

Granted - I am not a user from day one. I only have used Sonar from verson 6 onwards (skipped version 7), but like I said - if X1 is usable or not is just for the end user to decide. In my case it is, and in your case it is not. I am also an end user, but not the same type as you are. Maybe your opinion has more weight, but that does not should no make my opinion completely useless (I hope)..

I would like to see X1 improved so you have a stable system too, believe me.  But this thread is not about your stability (although it is important and could be handled in a seperate thread), but if jonbouy sould or should not upgrade- or at least work some time with X1. I think everybody should give X1 a fair chance and not let the remarks here put them off. If X1 is not what they want, there is still a very usable Sonar 8.5, or even other DAW's to consider. Nothing wrong with that.

Oh - and about the plugins. I was just reacting on the remarks from backwoods that the PC is inferior to the UAD etc. plugins. And I absolutely do not disagree with that, but only said it is too expensive to deliver Sonar with a PC loaded with Wave or UAD grade "plugins". The PC is mainly for people (like me sadly) that are not wealthy enough to buy this expensive add-ons. The people that do have those, can bypass the PC without a problem.

Oh noway J, you're opinion is as valid as mine. I have no weight over anyone else. Also, I never said X1 was un-usable, I just felt there were things that were wrong with it that really made it untrustworthy until this last patch. I mean, when you see the list of stuff that has been fixed since its release, it makes you wonder how it was released with so many issues. Granted, I'm happy the Bakers fixed the stuff...but I think that was a bit much...and it was a bit much for those that had problems to wait out that couldn't use it at all. I'm just not down with that sort of thing. Release it as bug free as possible with good beta testing, fix the bugs and be done with it...don't release something and tell people "a patch will be coming up shortly". I value and respect the honesty there, and prefer that over not knowing at all, but seriously, in my opinion that's just not right.
 
I work for Acme Bar Gig on the side...a small software company. We're so dead set against bugs that our company owner will not release until every single tester has reported 0 issues. He currently lives on stew every day while constantly updating and redefining his software. He'd rather starve to death than make a bad name for himself. And the dude is most likely going to be worth millions when he does release his latest creations. over 800,000 downloads of one of his pieces of software to date that he's given out for free. If he sells 100,000 units out of those 800,000 downloads that were for free...times $26, he's made 2.6mil on one piece of software. :) So it's not always the money for everyone.
 
Oh but this thread IS about my stability if I'm trying to explain the pros and cons to X1 to Jon. It's about my thoughts on how X1 is for me to help him decide if it's worth the risk of finding out on his own or not. What kind of friend would I be if I just bragged about the good stuff and didn't speak of the bad? :) Again, I've never said X1 was bad or anything...it's just not to my liking other than a few cool features for how *I* use it. I agree with you that everyone should try X1 for themselves. I'm glad I tried it and I'm glad I own it. I'm just not as happy with it as I hoped I'd be.
 
As for the plugins, I feel your pain there. If I didn't have the UAD plugs or the Waves stuff, I'd use as much Sonitus stuff as I could and then I'd resort to some free plugins that also deliver the goods. PC has its uses...I've used it with fair results but I have other things that I feel are far superior for my needs as well as what I do here. If I had a choice, I'd much rather see the Sonitus Eq and the compressor be allowed to be onboard with each channel....or have an option that allows me the onboard plugs of my choice. It's nice to just see it there on every track without having to double click in an effects bin. It's nice to see the Sonitus grid and know that when you double click it to see the eq, that it won't alter the frequencies like PC does. That's another hate of mine. LOL!
 
-Danny