Sonar X1 Piano Roll Requests and the smart tool

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TheoKrueger
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2011/10/14 15:33:29 (permalink)

Sonar X1 Piano Roll Requests and the smart tool

Hi all,

I would like to post some of the things that come to mind when using the piano roll editor in Sonar X1.
I am a very old Cakewalk user (since pro audio 9) and was thinking that some of the new changes 
in the piano roll editor become tiresome and time-consuming. I believe that the older version was more intuitive
and simple for the average towards pro user while the new one seems to be aimed to new users only.

You can check out some videos of me composing in realtime using Sonar 4 at my youtube page:
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheodorKrueger?feature=mhee

I have also sent these requests with the official form, but thought that they might get some more attention and possible corrections from others here.

Here are some things that come to mind:

a) When you use the draw tool to insert notes and hold the mouse key down, it inserts a series of notes, such as using the "Paint" tool in the older versions of Sonar. I think that the draw and paint tool should be two seperate tools. This way it is hard to paint a single note and move it around as it draws a chain of notes. The only workaround I have found is setting the Smart tool to both S and D, So it acts as both a select and draw tool

b) There should be a "Classic" key assignment where you can assign S to Select, D to draw, W go to Start, E for erase, B for scrub and N for disable snap. That way older users can feel comfortable working in the new environment without having to adapt to a totally new concept which might not be as succesful or fast as the older one.

c) When using the smart tool you need to double click to insert a note, I believe that single click note drawing would work better. This seems to be assigned to the Alt key, but I think that using a single click without any keyboard shortcuts would be easier. Perhaps there could be a "Insert note with a single click by default" on the smart tool configuration.

d) Please re-enable holding down the Shift key in order to draw a line in the controller panel.

e) When inserting Controller data, the data is inserted depending on the musical time selected, so if you have 1/16 there is a controller data inserted every 1/16th. This way you need to disable snap to grid each time you want to draw controllers in order to get controller data in series. Also, there seems to be no shortcut key for "analog" style drawing such as holding down Shift or Alt.

f) disabling "show controller handles" does not disable showing them. The handles are still there.

g) It takes too much time having to move the mouse all the way to the top, select the new controller that you want to use and then go all the way down again to insert the controller data. An idea is this: 

Insert 3 new icons in the controller panel. One would be a [V] which would have the Edit/New Value type menu, this way it would not take up much space and would also adapt to the new desing. The other two buttons would be small arrows [<] [>] to cycle through the existing controllers in a single panel instead of having them all add up. 


h) If you are using the Smart tool and insert a note, then resize it, the next note inserted has the same length as the original note time you have selected. A very clever aspect of Sonar , was that if you resize a note then the next one would have the resized length, so you can make a staccato and then insert more of the same length. I would really like to see this feature come back in a future version of Sonar X1 as it really speeds things up.

i) You cannot copy paste things using the Select tool neither can you move around a selected portion of notes. If at least the select tool would work like it used to and if you are able to assign it to S , then things would be much more like the older versions. A "Classic" Sonar key assignment would be wonderful as would be the old functionality of the piano roll tool.

j) While using the smart tool and holding down ALT: Instead of the scissor icon appearing which is seldom useful, I think that the resize tool should appear as default and:

Smart Tool functionality 2: While holding Alt and drawing notes, the length of the notes is changed instead of their position. The best would be previous note memory, so you can insert new notes with the same length as the previous you inserted.

k) there should be a small space between the 0 value of controller data and the position slider at the bottom of the screen so you can draw 0 easier. It is also a bit more difficult to draw 127 with the new system while in older version of sonar you simply drag the mouse up and draw horizontally.

l) Suggestion: While using the smart tool and drawing notes, you can press alt+right click to bring up the musical value menu. This way you can easily change the note length. This is not nescessary if the previous note memory is restored as an option.

m) I think that Audio tracks and Midi tracks should have a more distinctive colour in order to seperate them easier. Now they are exactly the same. Perhaps the Audio tracks could be a few tones lighter than the midi tracks or have a different hue.

n) Right Click + N doesn't seem to work in order to insert a new audio track.

o) You should be able to draw automatically in the controller panel using the Smart tool instead of having to switch to the draw tool.

p) Store Project Audio in its own folder should be disable by default in New menu.

q) When you right click on an audio or midi track there should be a "Colour" option so you can select what colour the track will have. (Not only the clips or audio data on the track). Some colours should be there by default as a factory recommendation.

Others:

- Polyphonic velocity audition should be disabled by default.

- If you set the keys to a normal Sonar key assignment the following happens:
You have to cycle through all the Draw tools when using the Draw tool and pressing D, only to find that you cannot resize notes without the glue tool coming up. The select tool doesn't allow you to move and copy paste notes.

Of all these, I think that the most important are: Seperating the draw from the various shape drawing tools. Restoring functionality to the Select tool. Disabling Controller handles completeley and restoring the old controller drawing as an option. Reactivating Shift for draw line. Offering more customization for the Smart tool so more users can define their worklfow.

I hope these are taken into consideration. Thank you for reading.

All the best,
Theo Krueger

www.theodorkrueger.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheodorKrueger?feature=mhee

post edited by TheoKrueger - 2011/10/14 15:44:21
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13 Replies Related Threads

    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Sonar X1 Piano Roll Requests and the smart tool 2011/10/14 16:24:40 (permalink)
    Re: a) b) & c), you can enter a single note by holding down Alt & clicking
     

    Smart Tool functionality 2: While holding Alt and drawing notes, the length of the notes is changed instead of their position. The best would be previous note memory, so you can insert new notes with the same length as the previous you inserted.
     
    This option already exists - With the Smart tool enabled, click the lower right hand rectagnle and scroll down to "Last Selected"
    n) - hit the INSERT key
    p) Store Project Audio in its own folder should be disable by default in New menu.
    Why? I much prefer it being theis way by default. It's not possible to please all of the people all of the time - Most of the users I converse with use Per Project audio files.
    post edited by Bristol_Jonesey - 2011/10/14 16:37:17

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    brundlefly
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    Re:Sonar X1 Piano Roll Requests and the smart tool 2011/10/14 16:28:03 (permalink)
    Welcome, Theo. You might be interested to know there was a long thread some time ago based on your Youtube video about writing in the PRV:

    http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2221250

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    #3
    FastBikerBoy
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    Re:Sonar X1 Piano Roll Requests and the smart tool 2011/10/14 17:25:56 (permalink)
    f) disabling "show controller handles" does not disable showing them. The handles are still there.

    Is a known bug, workround of sorts is to undock and disable floating of the PRV then it will allow you to change the setting.
    #4
    PenguiN42
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    Re:Sonar X1 Piano Roll Requests and the smart tool 2011/10/14 19:25:46 (permalink)
    It took me a while to move from the old "S, D, E key" paradigm to the new "ctrl-alt-shift" smart tool paradigm, but once I did, I found I was much more efficient with the smart tool. I don't think I ever leave the smart tool in midi editing anymore. (I still have to leave it occasionally in the track view, which is actually a bit jarring, because why leave functionality out?)

    But there still is some room for improvement. Once you get passed the "go back to the old way" suggestions, a lot of your other observations have merit.

    I'd say a good design goal would be that adventurous users should never have to leave the smart tool ever! :)

    Check out my band Never Right Now -- SONAR powered! :)
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    #5
    TEZ
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    Re:Sonar X1 Piano Roll Requests and the smart tool 2011/10/14 20:33:56 (permalink)
    Now all that’s missing that we used to have is the PRV Note Pane "Velocity Line Draw" function! If the cakers were nice they could reinstate it as When the Controller Pane is hidden 1. Line tool + SHIFT combination or 2. Smart tool + ALT + SHIFT combination. now that's a smart tool!
    #6
    yorolpal
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    Re:Sonar X1 Piano Roll Requests and the smart tool 2011/10/14 23:57:44 (permalink)
    Well Theo, ol pal, if they don't listen to you as to what is more intuitive and functional...I don't know who they would listen to.  Your videos speak for themselves.  Kudos.

    (totally agree on the polyphonic velocity default audition being dunderheaded)

    Rock On.

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    PedalPoint
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    Re:Sonar X1 Piano Roll Requests and the smart tool 2011/10/15 07:55:53 (permalink)
    Hi Theo, you certainly have the kind of deep understanding that can only be achieved by years of experience, and Cakewalk would be wise to listen to you.  Furthermore, you seem to be obsessed with efficiency, which is a good thing ;)

    It seems to me that a lot of the problems you're listing could be solved if we got back the PRV tool configuration. I'm referring to this window right here:


    Now that's what I call a smart tool (or to be precise, three smart tools).

    I have come to the conclusion that there is no "best way for everyone". Sonar users are just to different. The smart tool in X1 have an internal consistency and logic, but as long as it is uncustomizable it will always be suboptimal for a wast number of users, per definition.

    As for why they didn't include the PRV tool configuration window in X1, which to my mind is one of the most brilliant things they ever made, I can only speculate. My guess is that they didn't have time to implement it into the new paradigm.
    #8
    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:Sonar X1 Piano Roll Requests and the smart tool 2011/10/15 08:34:00 (permalink)
    Hi Theo,
     I just want to stop in and pay my respects. I am in awe of your midi composing skills and talents. I very much hope that Cakewalk will recognize the value of your input.

     I hope Cakewalk will consider and implement your ideas as well.

     I feel your SONAR 4 videos have some of the most valuable information and content of any instructional video I have seen about SONAR.

     When I saw, this morning, that you had just made a post I was gladly surprised.

     Welcome. It has been so nice to see your post.

     Thanks for taking the time to share your ideas here.


     very best regards,
    mike


    #9
    hellogoodbye
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    Re:Sonar X1 Piano Roll Requests and the smart tool 2011/10/15 10:48:13 (permalink)
    O boy... I am currently starting to make music a bit more than I've done lately and bought various things to get me going (new keyboard, Komplete 8 and I am thinking about joining the Kirk Hunter group buy!). Obviously, as a Sonar 8.5 PE user I am also thinking about getting X1. However, reading this forum every now and then ever since the release of X1 didn't help a lot to make me go the X1 way...

    Today I entered the X1 forum once more to check of things have changed lately, but this topic makes me think 'Ok, let's stick with 8.5...!'

    I do wonder what would be the benefit of getting X1... 85. feels like being at home, I know it quite well by now. and I wonder if all the changes in X1 will really be for the better. Well, maybe it will be for the better, but not after spending a lot of time with it. But if I read in this topic how things have changed (they REALLY ditched the PRV tool??? Are you kidding???) I think "Why the heck should I upgrade when everything works like a charm in 8.5...?'

    I didn't want to start another topic about it and hope no one minds me posting this here.

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    bentleyousley
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    Re:Sonar X1 Piano Roll Requests and the smart tool 2011/10/15 19:53:44 (permalink)
    Here! Here! I am also in awe of your talents and just wanted to add my 2 cents. I really appreciate you sharing your techniques for efficient workflow in regards to composition. They are truly remarkable. One thing I rarely have the opportunity to do is observe someone else directly using Sonar. In most other endeavors, one observes folks who have mastered the craft and tries to emulate the techniques that closely correspond to the type of work one is attempting. Unfortunately, composing is a solitary practice by its nature, but I think more "peek-over-the-shoulder" type tutorials revealing "real-world-user-techniques" for workflow within Sonar would be great.

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    Eyes
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    Re:Sonar X1 Piano Roll Requests and the smart tool 2011/10/16 05:43:17 (permalink)
    Hope everything is going well for you mate. Thanks for reuploading your videos, you are a legend as usual. :D

    I have been posting many of the same change requests (forums and submission form) since X1 was released but no luck. X1 seems so much slower for composing in real time compared to older versions.

    Version two of Studio One will be released in the next couple of days, supposedly has massive midi upgrades. May be worth looking into as well.


    Take care man.
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    TheoKrueger
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    Re:Sonar X1 Piano Roll Requests and the smart tool 2011/10/16 08:06:38 (permalink)

    Thanks for the warm welcome and the replies! It's great to see so many fellow composers in the same forum. I was basically thinking that it would be great if both the Smart tool and the old way of working could co-exist together in some configuration so both the new and older users can benefit from the new design and architecture.

    Bristol_Jonesey

    Smart Tool functionality 2: While holding Alt and drawing notes, the length of the notes is changed instead of their position. The best would be previous note memory, so you can insert new notes with the same length as the previous you inserted.
     
    This option already exists - With the Smart tool enabled, click the lower right hand rectagnle and scroll down to "Last Selected" 

    Thanks, that sounds great. Could you please explain in more detail where it is? I can't seem to find it.
     
    n) - hit the INSERT key 
    Cool thanks.
      
    p) Store Project Audio in its own folder should be disable by default in New menu.
    Why? I much prefer it being theis way by default. It's not possible to please all of the people all of the time - Most of the users I converse with use Per Project audio files.
    It could remember the last answer given so you don't have to untick it every time you make a new project.

    all the best,
    Theo
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    PedalPoint
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    Re:Sonar X1 Piano Roll Requests and the smart tool 2011/10/17 17:11:49 (permalink)
    TheoKrueger
    Bristol_Jonesey
    This option already exists - With the Smart tool enabled, click the lower right hand rectagnle and scroll down to "Last Selected" 
    Thanks, that sounds great. Could you please explain in more detail where it is? I can't seem to find it.


    You can find it in the little note duration menu in the tool hud. I think they put it in there in X1c.

    Long ago, I argued on this forum that there are both pluses and minuses to Sonar remembering the last selected duration, depending on the situation and your method of work. To quote what I wrote then: "That's why I think they should make it optional, but they probably won't."

    They sure made an idiot out of me by proving me wrong.  Damn you Cakewalk, for listening to your customers!!! 

    When Sonar suddenly stopped remembering the previous note value in X1 I had to rethink my whole method. The solution for me was to create new key-bindings for every posible note- and snap value in Sonar. With that in place I actually started preferring that Sonar didn't remember the previous value. The exception would of course be with non-standard note durations. In the final analysis, I guess I have to be quite happy with they way this turned out, having gotten exactly what I wanted. 
    #14
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