MIDI feedback loop?

It's been a while since I've been to these forums, or actually used Sonar, but my suspicion is that you are running into the MIDI crosstalk bug. This is the main reason I stopped using Sonar altogether. After years of empty promises from CW that they are going to fix this bug, I just gave up and moved on to a DAW that can get basic MIDI routing right and doesn't bleed MIDI events all over the place (yes, I'm still peeved about this).

Anyway, do you have any VSTi that sends MIDI events out, and for which you have enabled MIDI output? if so, I am almost 100% sure you are running into the MIDI crosstalk bug.

I wouldn't have thought to query on this phrase
 

Yea that is a big part of the problem - not many people connect the weird MIDI problems with this bug. Hence CW is still ignorantly under the impression this doesn't affect anyone but a small handful of people. Just because not many people specifically call out this bug, doesn't mean many people are not affected by it. This is MIDI Routing 101 folks, and Sonar fails it bigtime.
 
As you have seen, this bug has had a long and not very pretty history. I have done a lot to help CW identify the problem, and I offered many times to beta test a fix for it. You should see the long email discussions I had with CW. There have been so many empty promises that this would be fixed in the next version, that I foolishly bought each next version for years until I realized that it just isn't going to happen, hence dumping Sonar for a DAW that can get this basic functionality right.
 
In last year's release of Sonar (I forgot the exact version number), they claimed to have fixed the "MIDI crosstalk" bug. This was in response to Computer Music Magazine calling them out on this specific bug. But what they fixed was only one part of the problem where you got MIDI events bleeding into the wrong tracks while recording from multiple MIDI inputs. This is different from what the original MIDI crosstalk was - bleeding MIDI events all over the place from the output of VST synths. Yet CW happily claimed they fixed the bug, and gave me a $100 credit towards a future purchase. Well, since they haven't fixed the real bug, the $100 credit is basically worthless to me anyway, so I'm not even bothering. I come here from time to time to see if there has been any status update so I can actually use the credit, but so far it is the same old same old.
 
LOL, anyway, enough of my ranting. Unfortunately what you will find is that even if you select a specific MIDI channel within a MIDI port, while there won't be bleeding of events, you would still get randomly cut short notes, hung notes etc. As soon as you need just one VSTi to send MIDI events out, you will start running into problems and there is no sure way to work around it 100%.

jbraner


Sheesh, I've had little hiccups here and there, and now this - I hope this isn't going to be a permanent "feature", as it's pretty annoying...

Does this happen randomly - or does it always happen after a certain function?   I ask because this condition can (and does) happen when doing any "bounce" or "freeze" operations but Cancelling before completion;  often there is some junk left over in the audio buffer(s).

You definitely should not have to set your inputs to a specific channel unless there is a defined reason to do so.   "All Inputs -> Omni" is generally an acceptable setting.

So I would start suspecting the audio driver settings in both the audio control applet as well as in Sonar.

YOu might even want to reinstall your audio drivers to see if that makes any difference.

jbraner

do you have any VSTi that sends MIDI events out, and for which you have enabled MIDI output?

Definitely

There does seem to be some issue with SONAR's handling of MIDI Output from soft synths that was not addressed by the fix for recording hardware inputs (the other "MIDI Crosstalk" issue).

But, that issue notwithstanding, if you have a synth that generates MIDI output, and you have all tracks set to All Inputs - Omni with input echo enabled, of course you'll get feedback. The minute you insert anything the generates output, you need to restrict that track's input so it can't receive its own output. Other tracks can remain Omni, but not the one that's generating MIDI output.


FWIW, I almost always restrict every track to only the one port and channel I intend to be recording from. To me it's a best practice to enable only the minimum necessary signal path for both audio and MIDI to prevent just this sort of unintended consequence.

brundlefly,
 
I agree with you. It's just that I'm doing everything the same way I always have. I've had little problems here and there, but this time is worse. I'll tell you what I've noticed, and I think it's related - input echo used to default to (only) the track you've selected. In 8.5.3 you had a purplish icon that was set - now it's a blue one. Ever since the last update or two - input monitoring stays on for a few different tracks - besides the selected one. I've noticed that when I highlight a MIDI track to play, say, the bass - other tracks will play too because they have input monitoring on. I have to go find which is track is "on" - or click the global button up in the control bar to turn everything off. Then I can go to my track and it's fine. There is a setting to always monitor the current track - but X1 seems to enable the blue input monitor button (which seems to have two states now - one of them has a "A" on the icon. I can't find anything about this in the help file) randomly on whichever tracks it feels like. I'm going to see if I can turn off "Enable MIDI output" on a softsynth after it's already enabled. MAybe I can "replace it" (new expanded feature) with the same synth w/o MIDI output enabled).
 
ba,

Are you using any external MIDI hardware or is there any MIDI hardware connected ? IF SO, are you using real MIDI cables (as opposed to DIN cables)?

I use a "real" keyboard (Ymaha CS6X) connected to a MOTU MIDI express XT 8 port MIDI i/f with a "real" (DIN) MIDI cable. MIDI goes into the PC via USB. This has been in place for many years and many versions of SONAR - and has always worked fine.

UPDATE:
It's very easy to turm "Enable MIDI output" on or off in the synth rack now - I didn't know this. It *was* enabled for Kontakt - and that could be the cause of all my problems. I have certainly enabled thisa on synths before - as I've never been sure if you need it enabled for automation or anything else. Still - this *could* be the cause of my problems.
 
Also - the blue button only gets an "A" in it when there is an audio track enabled for input echo (?)
 
I have a default (normal.cwt) template that comes up - when SONAR loads - with one audio track and one MIDI track (I never use this unless I just want to test something in SONAR real fast without loading a "new" project.) These two tracks are unrelated but:
- the MIDI track toggles the echo button between on (blue) and off
- If I toggle the audio track to on, the MIDI also gets enabled and has the "A" on the button. Thereafter though, the MIDI track just toggles between off and on.
 
(here's the weird part)
- everytime I toggle the the audio track it does the same. So:
 
(with MIDI track echo off
- toggle audio echo off to on
- MIDI track is enabled with A
 
(toggle MIDI echo to off - audio is still on)
- toggle audio echo to off
- MIDI track is enabled with A
 
 
So it looks like this button does input echo for MIDI tracks, and "input monitoring" (a different thing really) for audio tracks - but I've never seen a reference to the "A" on the button.
(picture to follow but I have to reboot out of music partition)
 
EDIT - picture added

  
  
 

brundlefly,
 
Slowly this is sinking in... 
 
I also realised that p225 of the manual (I usually use "help" in SONAR and assumed it was pretty much the same thing) explains auto mode too. I honestly never noticed this behaviour - but I started this thread assuming that most if not all of this problem was self inflicted. I just didn't know *how*. ;-)
 
I still don't get why some tracks were having monitoring enabled - but it *could* have been caused by having MIDI output enabled on Kontakt - with it's 8 stereo outs!
 
So, after years of this (since Cakewalk Pro Audio 4) you still learn something new every day - and that doesn't even include the (mostly "beat" oriented) features I never use.
 
Thanks a lot ba, silk and brundlefly for your input - slowly this is sinking in to my thick skull, and who knows - maybe somebody else learned something from this thread ;-)
 
Moral of story:
- Turn off "Enable MIDI Output" on all softsynths unless you really need it!
- Pay attention to your input monitoring 

the last Kontakt MIDI track has the automatic input echo button on BUT the original MIDI  track still has input echo on (not automatic though - so no A)   I wouldn't expect this.

Hmmm... that would be bad, but I can't replicate it.   Are you sure the original MIDI track was only auto-echoing (with the A in the icon)? If it was forced to On (no A), it would stay that way then the tracks are added, and the focus moves to another MIDI track. You can't force input echo Off and have it stay that was when focus changes, but you can force it On, and have it remain that way. This is also as intended.

brundlefly

the last Kontakt MIDI track has the automatic input echo button on BUT the original MIDI  track still has input echo on (not automatic though - so no A)   I wouldn't expect this.

Hmmm... that would be bad, but I can't replicate it.   Are you sure the original MIDI track was only auto-echoing (with the A in the icon)? If it was forced to On (no A), it would stay that way then the tracks are added, and the focus moves to another MIDI track. You can't force input echo Off and have it stay that was when focus changes, but you can force it On, and have it remain that way. This is also as intended.

I reported a bug relating to this a long time ago.   With "Always echo current track" set ON, inserting a new track outside the folder where a last track was echo'd seems to leave this last track's input monitoring status ON (ie, the widget is lit up).   It is not actually echoing, however.  Only the newly added track echos.

I haven't checked to see if that's been fixed in X1, but I will later today when I'm working at the DAW.

This issue John is reporting sounds very similar.

Cool. Glad to help.