DonM
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PT Matches Sonar
All: If you haven't seen the AES announcements for Pro Tools 10 then you missed out on the fact that Pro Tools has finally caught up to Sonar Producer 5 (partially). In other relentless acts of stupidity, they released a new plug in format called AAX - this is like announcing a new tape based VCR - not necessary in the industry - only necessary for them to catch up to Sonar 6. I wonder if Avid knows there are real products in the market they don't even compare to. They are teetering on the Hardware / Software company fence and can't create legitimate pricing for any of their customers except the customers that price doesn't matter. I'd rant more, but in an effort to be 'green' I'll save the electrons -D
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Beagle
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Re:PT Matches Sonar
2011/10/22 11:48:38
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I had seen the announcement of PT10, but had not seen anything about a new plugin format.
I'm not sure what we really need new plugin platforms for. if there are things missing from the current formats then shouldn't they be developed instead of creating new proprietary formats?
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DonM
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Re:PT Matches Sonar
2011/10/22 12:27:09
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B: The ONLY reason for AAX is to get their app to 64 bit. All of their hardware and plugs prevent them from both non real time bounce, track freeze, and a 64 bit app without this myopic and self centered plug in format. Like I said, it is similar to announcing a tape based video recorder - we are way past the need to have a new plugin format. If they weren't so arrogant and equally stupid, maybe they'd just open up support for VST maybe that would have been smarter. (BTW - I hope the cake bakers are pasting my posts on the lunch room walls and getting a chuckle!) Best -D
post edited by DonM - 2011/10/24 21:25:11
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emwhy
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Re:PT Matches Sonar
2011/10/22 15:33:16
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Ditto on that take Don. I have PT9 and it's lack of vst support is a pain, no real time bounce or freeze is also a drawback when you need to get things done quick or want to conserve CPU. But then again if you're a studio owner charging by the hour why would you want the quick and easy functionality of SONAR. 
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DonM
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Re:PT Matches Sonar
2011/10/22 16:49:25
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I have a session tomorrow with a classical pianist and two vocalist - in a performance studio downtown. My location rig is ready to go ... we have two hours before turning the space over to string ensemble for another recording. The client needs a 24/96 file on an optical disk and USB drive by 7:30 - not going to happen with my PT9 rig. Sonar will do perfectly as always.
-D
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emwhy
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Re:PT Matches Sonar
2011/10/22 17:06:42
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One thing I did wish SONAR had that I like in PT9 and Reason is automation lanes. But outside of that I prefer SONAR for my MIDI stuff, just waiting for 64 bit ReWire.
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DonM
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Re:PT Matches Sonar
2011/10/23 08:41:44
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emwhy
One thing I did wish SONAR had that I like in PT9 and Reason is automation lanes. But outside of that I prefer SONAR for my MIDI stuff, just waiting for 64 bit ReWire.
E: I use PT and Sonar pretty much evenly now due to inter-studio projects and the university program I teach in now includes both products. I find there are the workflow differences and and other such things that separate all of the products to some degree. The thing that is substantial about PT compared to Sonar specifically is - years ago under Ron Kuper and then Noel (and the rest of the developers) Sonar looked to the future of the industry and lead the windows based DAW space from an open and forward thinking perspective. Specifically they developed and cut the edge from a technological perspective that literally set the mark for the rest of the developing companies. AVID/Digi has only ever cut an edge that would benefit them. Their ever present time bomb hardware obsolescence, dongle, and until recently hardware requirements demonstrate a complete denial of the world since 2003 (approx) Their upgrade path and pricing demonstrate an unconsciousness for the realities of host based systems and what products like 64 bit Sonar can do for a fraction of the cost. It also demonstrates they don't care about their customer base. Over the past year I have spent a ton of time in the PT community (and even working with folks from Avid) The mentality and approach to the market is that of a muscle beach mentality. Everything, everyone and 'every studio, is bigger and better than you. So the product attacts its customers with a subliminal message ....'dont' you want to be big too?' - I just want to get my client projects done efficiently, be able to afford to buy food and guitars, and work creatively with great sonics ... I can do that with Sonar - I'm big enough. -D
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Rothchild
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Re:PT Matches Sonar
2011/10/23 09:27:10
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Wow, imagine a software company shackling their program to a propriatory format for one of the most important, supposedly modular, elements. I can't see Cakewalk ever doing something as obscene to their customers.
Pro Channel rocks!
:-/
Child
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emwhy
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Re:PT Matches Sonar
2011/10/23 10:39:32
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Well said Don. I also teach a MIDI/loop based recording class and go back and forth between PT, SONAR, Reason. By week 8, most students start to really like SONAR when they see how user friendly it is, but this (unlike last year) all the students are MAC users and if they buy a specific package all get an M Box with PT 9 crossgrade options. I don't run the program, I just teach one unit and think they should be given more options. I like having PT, like that I can be fluent in it, but hate the way AVID does business compared to other developers out there.
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bunnyfluffer
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Re:PT Matches Sonar
2011/10/23 11:10:05
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I've had two turn key TDM rigs and completely despise the Digi/Avid paradigm. I skipped the HD platform all together. I've never been more productive than with Sonar (starting with producer 6, and now on X1). However, I think Avid are finally, finally getting smart. The advantage to PT has historically always been about two things... hardware acceleration, and industry standardization on the high end of professional applications at large commercial studios as well as hollywood based post production. Now that Avid is recognizing the power of Native computing (since PT 9) I can see a strategy for slowly winning over users of other platforms who are required to print sessions to PT for compatibility standards. If PT can first compete with Logic (and it appears Apple's heart is no longer in the DAW business) than that's a big first step towards greater brand ubiquity and market share at least on one platform, and the platform of choice for those same high end users. The next logical step would be to start working on migrating PC users, however the lack of VST compatibility is a major hurdle.
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DonM
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Re:PT Matches Sonar
2011/10/28 08:31:47
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Well ... it looks like AVID considered the prospect for PT10 so dismal they laid off between 100 and 200 employees. I know for a fact that PT support and service was decimated. Story HERE -D
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DonM
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Re:PT Matches Sonar
2011/10/28 08:33:45
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Sorry repost
post edited by DonM - 2011/10/28 08:37:55
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jackn2mpu
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Re:PT Matches Sonar
2011/10/28 13:13:38
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DonM
Well ... it looks like AVID considered the prospect for PT10 so dismal they laid off between 100 and 200 employees. I know for a fact that PT support and service was decimated.
Story HERE
-D
That was so the guy at the top - Gary Greenfield - could get another $400,000 US in his pay packet. The mood over at the DUC is ugly for sure with lots of people ticked off.
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jackn2mpu
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Re:PT Matches Sonar
2011/10/28 13:17:32
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bunnyfluffer
I've had two turn key TDM rigs and completely despise the Digi/Avid paradigm. I skipped the HD platform all together. I've never been more productive than with Sonar (starting with producer 6, and now on X1). However, I think Avid are finally, finally getting smart. The advantage to PT has historically always been about two things... hardware acceleration, and industry standardization on the high end of professional applications at large commercial studios as well as hollywood based post production. Now that Avid is recognizing the power of Native computing (since PT 9) I can see a strategy for slowly winning over users of other platforms who are required to print sessions to PT for compatibility standards. If PT can first compete with Logic (and it appears Apple's heart is no longer in the DAW business) than that's a big first step towards greater brand ubiquity and market share at least on one platform, and the platform of choice for those same high end users. The next logical step would be to start working on migrating PC users, however the lack of VST compatibility is a major hurdle.
The so-called lack of vst compatibility is a red herring at least for the major plugs which all have an RTAS version. And of course there's always the fxpansion vst-RTAS wrapper. And why should PT try and complete with Logic? Better they should try and go toe-to-toe with Digital Performer. It's only now that PT has even come close to what DP has had for years.
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bitflipper
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Re:PT Matches Sonar
2011/10/28 13:26:04
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Those layoffs were probably part of the business plan from the day Avid took over.
That would be the standard American strategy, anyway. You buy a smaller company, thereby saddling it with new debt, expecting the new subsidiary to pay off the loans you took to buy it in the first place. That requires increasing profit margins, but in a declining economy the only way to do that is by reducing costs. Consequently, layoffs are inevitable. How often do you hear about a merger resulting in more jobs?
After reading Ikutaro Kakehashi's autobiography, I learned how fundamentally different the Japanese business philosophy is. Cakewalk and Steinberg seem to have done OK under the wings of their Japanese owners.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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jackn2mpu
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Re:PT Matches Sonar
2011/10/28 14:15:21
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bitflipper
Those layoffs were probably part of the business plan from the day Avid took over.
That would be the standard American strategy, anyway. You buy a smaller company, thereby saddling it with new debt, expecting the new subsidiary to pay off the loans you took to buy it in the first place. That requires increasing profit margins, but in a declining economy the only way to do that is by reducing costs. Consequently, layoffs are inevitable. How often do you hear about a merger resulting in more jobs?
After reading Ikutaro Kakehashi's autobiography, I learned how fundamentally different the Japanese business philosophy is. Cakewalk and Steinberg seem to have done OK under the wings of their Japanese owners.
Then the layoffs were part of the plan for years as Avid has owned Digidesign for a LONG time. It's only been the last few years that the Digidesign name officially went away. And personally I don't give a damn how the Japanese do business. If you or anyone else wants to know what I have to say on that feel free to email me and you'll get an earful.
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mgh
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Re:PT Matches Sonar
2011/10/28 14:53:03
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RTAS versions are almost always more expensive than native formats. i had a quick check-in at the DUC forums, boy there is some angst there - especially from HD owners who are going to find their hardware obsolete and need to rebuy all their plugs soon, should they wish to stay current with their PT version...makes x1's saga look almost insignificant!
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jackn2mpu
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Re:PT Matches Sonar
2011/10/28 17:10:56
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mgh
RTAS versions are almost always more expensive than native formats. i had a quick check-in at the DUC forums, boy there is some angst there - especially from HD owners who are going to find their hardware obsolete and need to rebuy all their plugs soon, should they wish to stay current with their PT version...makes x1's saga look almost insignificant!
You're confused about RTAS cost; generally there is no separate RTAS version of a plug. Most, if not all VST plugs also have an RTAS version available from the same installer software with no additional cost. The Arturia plugs are like that, ditto for most everything else out there. It's the TDM versions that are always more expensive than any other version. And depending on the software vendor the AAX plugs may not be extra cost. McDSP is one that's not charging extra for when they come out with the AAX version. There may be others but that's the one I know of right now.
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