Audio interface-basic questions

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Tangle
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2011/11/12 05:47:45 (permalink)

Audio interface-basic questions

Firstly,if I buy an audio interface am I stuck with the DAW that comes with the AI ? As a relative novice I,m bewildered by the various AI,s on offer. All I want to do is be able to assign Channel 1 on my mixing desk to Audio track 1 on my MC3 on my PC. So from what I can gather,I need an AI. I think firewire is the way to go as I need at least 4 I/O,s. I play guitar,bass,drums etc myself and use a reel to reel too,for FX etc,and have hit on the problem of being unable to Solo the drum track to my headfones. As a result if I monitor the drums on my monitors,the mike I,m using to record guitar picks up the drums,if you see what I mean.
 
I know I could get rid of the mixing desk,but it has a reasonble EQ section and I like the hands on,physical touch. I,m also bl**dy useless with computors. I have my eyes on a Focusrite LE Saffire Firewire soundcard. I also like the Alesis I/O 14 or 26. As money is a big consideration (£100 GBP ) I,ll have to buy SH. Ive also looked at the PCI soundcard type with breakout box,such as the M- Audio 44/66.
 
Sorry for the waffle. Basicly I need a no frills,simple to use device that allows me to assign 8 tracks max. No midi etc. I,m just using the PC as a replacement for an 8 track R2R.Any advice would be welcome,thanks in advance chaps,Andy
post edited by Tangle - 2011/11/12 05:59:49

Ins/Outs into a Fostex 812 12 into 8 mixing desk -
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    Beagle
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2011/11/12 08:34:11 (permalink)
    no, you're not stuck with the DAW that comes with the "AI" or soundcard unless you buy into something proprietary like ProTools HD (which I doubt you're talking about).

    you can't have 4 I/O channels working simultaneously with MC3. Music Creator only allows 2 simultaneous inputs and outputs.  you'd need to buy a software DAW package that allows more I/O.  you can upgrade from MC3 to Sonar X1 Essentials for about $70 that would allow you to use more than 2 inputs at the same time.

    I don't like the Alesis I/O - their drivers are "iffy"  the focusrite saffire is a good card, but make sure you have a TI Firewire chipset in your computer.  if you don't have TI chipset, you may have problems with any firewire soundcard.

    the m-audio delta 44 and 66 are great cards.  I had a 44 for 5 years until it had a physical problem that was more expensive to fix than it was to replace with something else.

    check my website in my signature for more information on buying a soundcard and some recommendations.

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    #2
    Tangle
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2011/11/12 11:14:50 (permalink)
    Thanks for your reply MR B. It looks like I,ve got to upgrade from MC3. I can already get two channels-ish by using left and right channels of my soundcard to two audio tracks. But its obviously ideal.

    The reason I like MC3 is that it has a relatively simple layout and is easy to use. I tried a couple of Ableton,s platforms,but wasnt happy with them. Thanks for the heads up on Sonar X1.  Thats about £35 GBP I think.How does this compare ease of use wise with MC3 ? Lastly does anyone have a copy to sell ? Many thanks,Andy.

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2011/11/12 11:45:01 (permalink)
    I was going to point you to Beagle's site but he did it already.

    A good interface can work with any DAW... I would not use the DAW software that comes packaged with the interface since it is normally one of the LE versions.... like a demo version with limited abilities. 

    The USB interfaces are very good now. Since you are using Music Creator 3 (did I see that correctly?) I would say you don't need any more then a 2 audio channel interface because MC only supports 2 inputs at a time.

    I'd recommend an upgrade to MC6 now, or to X1e. The price is reasonable, AND..... it has some real performance improvements over MC3...and it also has some nice sampled sounds in it. Cakewalk Sound Center alone is worth the price IMHO. 

    I just upgraded (they call it a crossgrade) to X1essentials and it is sweet.  Worth the cost for sure. That allows more inputs then the limit of 2 with MC.  Look at Beagle's site and see what interface will give you what you need. 

    Be aware that firewire doesn't always work with chipsets other then the TI chipset.  Also USB 2 & 3 are now faster then the Firewire ports.... when I bought my firewire Saffire, that was not the case. 

    My suggestion, visit a music store and have a look at the interfaces they sell. Take with the staff and see what they recommend... but be educated BEFORE you walk in, so you don't buy something that is not what you really need. 


    Edit: one more thing.... all my mixing is done in the box. I have no need for an external mixing desk. All my stuff goes straight to the interface..... if you get one that has good preamps, you will not need any external mixer...unless you really just want to use one from old habit. 

    post edited by Guitarhacker - 2011/11/12 11:47:41

    My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

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    Beagle
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2011/11/12 17:14:55 (permalink)
    just to clarify something - MC6 is cheaper to "upgrade to" and guitarhacker suggested it, but MC6 still only allows 2 simultaneous inputs, so that wouldn't fit your needs.

    X1 (and MC6 BTW) are very different from MC3, however.  the interface and workflow are very very different.  I suggest you download the X1 demo and try it out.  it's crippled some in functionality and very "slimmed down" as far as plugins and synths, but the basic GUI and functionality are there and would give you an idea what it would take to learn X1 Essentials for your multi-input purposes.
     
    and if you're asking if anyone has a copy of X1 to sell, that's not supposed to happen.  the licensing agreement does not allow transfer of the software license to anyone.  once you pay for it - it's yours forever.  upgrade prices are here, tho:
     
    http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/
    post edited by Beagle - 2011/11/12 17:16:44

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    Tangle
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2011/11/13 07:46:54 (permalink)
    Thanks chaps. I never thought to check if MC3,s I/O capacity. Sorry,yes it was cheeky of me to ask if anyone has a copy to sell. I think Ive found a copy of X1 for about 50 quid. Its just the basic X1, not the producer version. Thanks for the link Mr B,I,ll try the trial version and see how I get on.

    I,m also intrigued that USB 2 AI,s are faster than FW. Although the latest AI I,ve been looking at is within my budget and looks simple to use ( M- Audio Delta 1010 ) As to popping in a shop to peruse the wares,the nearest shop that has a good selection,would be down in London,over 100 miles from me and involving a epic journey. I live way out in the sticks and have only a thumb for transport.

    Also I have lots learn. still dont know what dithering is,or why its tri-angular,amongst many other things like latency. But your help/advice helps immensly,thanks again,Andy.

    Ins/Outs into a Fostex 812 12 into 8 mixing desk -
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    Beagle
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2011/11/13 20:40:54 (permalink)
    I've not said that the USB soundcards are faster than firewire.  it really depends on the way the soundcard hardware and software was created as to whether they are faster or not, and mostly it's about the software (drivers).

    I used to have an m-audio 1010LT.  they are older technology, but should work great.  the non-LT version has balaced I/O and wordclock available.  the LT version has RCA connectors instead of 1/4" balanced (which I didn't like).  but don't count on the mic pres in the LT for anything.  use them as LINE inputs only and use your mixer for MIC pres.

    dithering is just a way to add noise to the export instead of allowing the export to have empty zeros in the digital realm.  honestly, I don't think it's that important.  I can't hear any difference between any of the different types.

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    Tangle
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2011/11/14 04:28:46 (permalink)
    Sorry MR B,didnt meen to infer that you said USB faster than FW. Guitarhacker said that USB 2 + 3 are faster than FW ports,Andy.

    Ins/Outs into a Fostex 812 12 into 8 mixing desk -
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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2011/11/14 07:34:58 (permalink)
    That is what I have heard.... I will not mention the source, suffice it to say the guy knows his stuff. 

    The newer USB2 &3  ports have the ability to be faster then firewire in data transfer.   

    A better reason to consider USB rather then  firewire is that firewire ports are not being put on all new computers AND the chipset that runs the firewire port is sometimes not compatible with the firewire interfaces. 

    I also noticed that the new Focusrite Saffire interface is not firewire, it's USB so the manufacturers are moving towards the more common USB port. 

    It is for those reasons as opposed to speed alone that I recommend a USB port based interface. If my firewire Saffire died, I would replace it with a USB interface.



    Since you live so far out in the sticks, ....100 miles and no car , yeah that's an epic journey....check the ones available from the online outlets, research on Mr B's web site, ask questions here, and buy the one you find to be compatible with your needs. Let the delivery man make that journey to you. 
    post edited by Guitarhacker - 2011/11/14 07:37:02

    My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

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    Beagle
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2011/11/14 07:53:14 (permalink)
    there are no USB 3 soundcard devices on the market yet. 

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    rpe
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2011/12/13 18:23:40 (permalink)
    Beagle,
     
    I see you only have one USB interface on your website's spreadsheet.  Can you recommend any others, paticularly with use with Sonar 1x and Windows 7, 64 bit?
     
    thanks,
     
    Reed

    guitar geezer
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    ChuckC
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2011/12/13 18:46:26 (permalink)
    Hehe.... He keeps calling you Mr. B.

    ADK Built DAW, W7, Sonar Platinum, Studio One Pro,Yamaha HS8's & HS8S  Presonus Studio/Live 24.4.2, A few decent mic pre's,  lots of mics, 57's,58 betas, Sm7b, LD Condensors, Small condensors, Senn 421's,  DI's,  Sans Amp, A few guitar amps etc. Guitars : Gib. LP, Epi. Lp, Dillion Tele, Ibanez beater, Ibanez Ergodyne 4 String bass, Mapex Mars series 6 pc. studio kit, cymbals and other sh*t.
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    spacealf
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2011/12/13 19:12:18 (permalink)
    In a sense you probably will be beating your head against the wall. First you probably need a better computer. I still have Pentium 4 computer, and if not using any plug-ins it handles many tracks (40 or more probably but I only have used 36), but it is a false 64-bit computer, hyperthread technology 32-bit computer. It has two cores, but early two cores that don't work as well as newer two-core computers, but it works well enough. (It's the cache that gets muddled up with reused hit and misses of programming codes. But it is better than a single-core computer, which is what I am guessing you have. But yours may work well enough as it is, as long as you do not try and add all those plug-ins (which I do not) to make the music (plugins are like drum kits and any other instruments that are not real but used when you do not play the instrument and you have to change the MIDI type output to a wave file on the computer maybe on the fly while it is playing - that takes a lot of computing power - way more than just having the DAW record the output from a instrument with a live wave file recording).

    Latency is the lag in recording and listening to the recording when recording more than one track (usually I record stereo or left and right) and trying to record another track. ASIO drivers allow for that latency so what you record and what you listen to happen to be the same timing, or else with WDM/KS or MME drivers you will always have that lag that can amount to more the slower the computer is, but never disappear no matter what audio interface you use or recording you make. It can be very low like 6ms (milliseconds which ain't much but not exactly on) to more like mine with the WDM/KS drivers for Sonar 7 which is going to not be less than 21 ms. It just don't work well to do that while trying to record, so ASIO drivers (with the audio interface) are used so everything comes out together, listening to an already recorded track and adding a new track and tracks and tracks.


    As to firewire, yes it still is faster, but if not the new technology (plus not having a firewire input on the computer while having at least a USB2 (not a USB1.1)  many ports, it just will not be faster. a 400mB firewire is slower than a 480mB USB2 port. If they were using a 800mB firewire port then that would be faster, but now there will be USB3 pretty soon and that will probably still be faster. A 1600 firewire port would still be faster, but you have to use what you can get. And although there may be standards that they have agreed to, there will always be lag in what is made and what can be made. I have a USB2 audio interface (not a USB1.1 interface which was the first one and is too slow anymore) so my RME Babyface works great with it (although you may get a click or something sometimes - it just happens but it never does it when recording and usually only when listening - they tightened up the drivers so a PCI-e card probably still is faster than any firewire or USB type audio interface. But only have one PCI-e port which I use for my graphic card, and they have a PCI-e not 16 port but a PCI-1 port which may be fast enough, usually there is no one really using it, so again it depends on what you can get. PCI can still work fine, but the choices are limited and not as good as the newer versions of audio interface, especially like a USB2 interface which can plugged in or unplugged into your computer, but I don't disconnect mine so I use it as a soundcard for anything else, like DVD movies or listening to music to youtube videos. Plus the new ones can record all the way up to 24-bit (32-bit rendering) and 192kHz sample rates. Music Creator will not do that, and I don't know if you can get over 44, 100 sample rate (the same rate used for CDs) and 16-bit (CDs) but the newer one may allow that. I use Sonar 7 now, instead of MC4 which I still have on my computer, so I record lately only at 48000 sample rate and 24-bit, but not at 16-bit and 44100 sample rate. Still have to end up at the low end, but I guess it is suppose to give anyone recording the higher up in sample rate (up to 192000 now with newer audio interfaces like mine) more head room. I doubt if I go at anytime over 96000 sample rate - and 24-bit. It takes more harddrive space (a lot) if going up to higher rates, and well Windows Media Player, only works up to 48000 and 16-bit anyway, so even if a DVD is better because a real recording studio or movie studio was used and makes it better, a DAW on a home computer will only do so much, and that will be it. Unfortunately the standard for a CD is still 44100 and 16-bit, even if recorded at 24-bit and whatever sample rate. Youtube videos are even that good and usually more like mp3 files like a lot of people mix-down to, to limit the size of the file or music song.

    Well, that's about it, and if I missed anything, well, just know that it all can be researched on the Internet.

    If I had a 64-bit computer and newer processor then I probably would consider Sonar newest one (X1b) whatever it is. But then I only have a 32-bit computer and OS system called Windows XP, but it works still for what I do, and that is not use a bunch of plug-in tracks that I think if I read correctly, make the MIDI into a wave file on the fly with instruments plug-ins. I won't record guitar amps either, for I can buy a digital simulator type box that simulates guitar amps and effects and whatever and record direct into the DAW (digital audio workstation which MC3 or MC4 or Sonar 7 or higher is).



    #13
    Beagle
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2011/12/13 19:17:03 (permalink)
    rpe


    Beagle,
     
    I see you only have one USB interface on your website's spreadsheet.  Can you recommend any others, paticularly with use with Sonar 1x and Windows 7, 64 bit?
     
    thanks,
     
    Reed

    you didn't go to the 2nd page
     
    http://homerecording.beaglesound.com/cards/card_recommend2.html
     

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    spacealf
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2011/12/13 19:21:34 (permalink)
    And I can solo any number of tracks and listen to only the tracks I want to (with headphones and not monitor speakers) because except for voice, everything is only with the headphones and not speakers at any time, while recording a new track. I could listen to part of the drums, or some of the drums while recording a new track or any which way I want to listen. I think I can do that with MC4 also, so knowing that I had MC 3 also somewhere around here, I think that could do it also, I think I finally took that off of my computer because I had it on a older computer and got MC4 a while back now before I sprang for Sonar 7 (which had a huge patch but I finally got it). Sonar 7 works well enough for me, but then I do not use those plug-in type instruments although they may give different or even better sounds, but then that is that. I probably could use some of those and have those included with Sonar 7 whatever they gave with that, but have not even tried those out yet.

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    spacealf
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2011/12/13 19:25:06 (permalink)
    I mean the voice recording (singing) is in the room but if waiting for a quiet time that can be done well enough and with a reflexion type filter thingy behind the mic to not add any noise, and besides the vocalworks module I have (effects and harmony and stuff) has a noise gate in it and compression I can change, and all that makes a singing no noise track even in my less than ever will be anything close to record in environment.

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    spacealf
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2011/12/13 19:47:50 (permalink)
    youtube videos are not as good is what I meant to say, unless done by a real studio or now using HD recording codecs for videos and audio in the videos. That's another subject I have to read more about.

    I think dithering is the process of adding noise because when you record at a different sample rate (usually higher) than what you probably will export the audio in (say like you record at the 96000 24-bit sample rate but mix-it down or export the audio to the standard 44100 - 16 bit sample rate) there may be artifacts or distortion or modulation noise introduced into the final wave file because of converting the signal. Triangle usually is better than rectangle, and if not changing too much (say like going from 48000 to 44100 - all 16bit) then perhaps no dithering is needed.

    post edited by spacealf - 2011/12/13 19:49:51
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    Tangle
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2012/10/05 07:25:57 (permalink)
    Been away for a while. I,ve  managed to save some cash ,chaps. The interfaces I,m looking at, are second hand - IE Motu 828 MK2,Digidesign,which has pro-tools with it. Lastly a few Focusrite Saffire Pro (there are some that come with two mics-MXL 440/441-seems a bit of a gimick and the postage is $80!) With your kind help (thanks Spacealf - Mr B...Is this an insult in the USA) I,m confidant I can suss out which one to get.

    However,since my last post the  X2 has come out,but Windows XP isnt supported. It may not be important though,as I wont be buying any add on software. Therefor is it still your considered opinion to go for X1 essentials for my DAW?

    Hope your all in good fettle,Andy.


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    AT
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2012/10/05 09:57:32 (permalink)
    X2 should work fine, its just that Cake won't help w/ any issues, the same as Microsoft.  It is like the warrenty on your car running out - you can still get it fixed, just not for free.

    @

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    Cactus Music
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2012/10/05 11:49:30 (permalink)
    Most interfaces come with "Lite" versions of different DAW's. Tascam ships with Cubase, M Audio has Protools etc,
    If you going with Sonar, which is recomended by any one here ( obviously) then why not purchase a Roland interface? For what your talking, the most basic version of Sonar will do 100x more than you need. The most critical part of a DAW system is the drivers.
    You will soon find yourself left behind in the dust if you aslo don't upgrade your computer and OS every 5 years.

    Johnny V  
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    #20
    Tangle
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2012/10/05 12:48:12 (permalink)
    Thanks. (""Left behind in the dust"") In what respect? The PC I use for recording,I use only for recording. It has all the specs I need to run X1 essentials. Unless I make a best selling album(doubtfull) I havnt got the dosh for continual upgrades in PC's or anything. All I need really is a DAW with at least 4/IO's so I can multitrack via my mixing desk. I,ve recently got an Allen and Heath Mod 2 desk,whilst not as good as the AMEK I used to have,it has all I need,and I dont have to sod about finding the right menu/box to click. sorry,I,m a Luddite.
       Andy.


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    Cactus Music
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    Re:Audio interface-basic questions 2012/10/07 00:39:38 (permalink)
    That is definatly the saddest specs I've seen around here , not poking fun at you , but people give away P4's with at least a 2 gigs of RAM, so I see no reason to say it's a money thing. just sayin! Computers are free to cheap. The least of our expences in this money gobbling hobbie.

    Johnny V  
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