Danny Danzi
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/04 22:05:46
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Tap
I have to strongly agree with Danny. Once you have a really healthy signal, It's hard to beat a great plug-in. It just takes some patience getting it programmed to get the right sound out of it. At the same time, there are some hardware that you just can't find a suitable plug-in for like Bat's DBX MC-6.
Yep that's my feeling as well Tap...totally. I think it all depends where we are in the creative stage of the game. Some guys like to color the sound before it gets to disc, others like to do it after. Both methods work...this we know. I just don't think one is better than the other, just different and depends what you're shooting for. Like for me...I'm a mic man that goes through the pains of hell to reproduce the sound I hear coming from the source or I don't press the record button. You know...sit in a room with a guitar amp and a cab, and mess with different mic's and positionings until I say "that's the sound I hear!" When I get that, I can use a Mackie 32x8 console with the stock pre's in it or my Tascam pre's in my DM-4800. I just don't need any coloration at this point in MY work ethics. I've just always been a firm believer in capturing the exact sound I hear without coloration...whether it be drums, guitars, vocals and then send a good clean signal to disc. I just find that *I* don't need a bunch of fancy outboard gear to really get what I need there and the plugs can give me a VERY close coloration of what I would do destructively with pricey outboard gear that at this stage of the game, doesn't need to be "as destructive". That's just me though and what has worked through the years. :) -Danny
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ampfixer
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/04 22:23:15
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As the O/P I had posed this question to see if it made sense to get involved in building signal processing hardware. As of page 4 in the thread it looks like the answer is a definite ....maybe.
Like most things it all comes down to what each person thinks is good. What is also becoming clear is that in 2012 there doesn't seem to be a need for hardware because software has become very good. Hardware is a preference of some people for a number of reasons like past history, sound and to impress customers.
Thanks to everyone for your replies, I really appreciate your comments.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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SongCraft
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/04 23:07:46
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Danny: Yep that's my feeling as well Tap...totally. I think it all depends where we are in the creative stage of the game. Some guys like to color the sound before it gets to disc, others like to do it after. Both methods work...this we know. I just don't think one is better than the other, just different and depends what you're shooting for.
ampfixer: Thanks to everyone for your replies, I really appreciate your comments.
IMO that concludes this topic to a T, so well said I think I'm starting to get all teary eye with that warm fuzzy feeling inside :)
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droddey
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 03:35:50
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When you use outboard gear n the tracking process, it's part of the sound itself. It's not really any different than moving a mic (which is technically also coloring the sound just as much or more), or choosing a different amp, or a different chorus pedal or using a compression pedal, etc... It's not more pure if it comes before the amp head vs. after the pre-amp, though I think in either case it's more pure than doing it after the fact digitally. And I don't think that my outboard gear imparts any significant amount of color in and of itself just by it being turned on. It's more about letting them do what they do while recording, so that I can 'play' the compressor just like I'm playing the instrument, or hear the EQ that's going to be part of the sound. Just as a guitarist plays a compression or EQ pedal. It's the same either way, though with some instruments there's no way to use pedals, so you have to do it after the pre-amp if you are going to do it in the analog domain. So it's not any sort of lack of purity, since clearly if you are going to apply the processing later ITB, it's still being processed beyond what was captured. But I feel I can get it right better if I'm really hearing it on the way in, and self-mixing myself. And of course if I'm applying it in the analog domain, I can monitor it with zero latency, which I think is very useful as well. It does require that you commit,and maybe sometimes you get it wrong, but it's part of the learning process, when you know its for keeps. I don't think that music has been 'improved', other than in terms of technical specs, by being able to put off more and more decisions until the mix.
post edited by droddey - 2012/01/05 03:43:49
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 07:38:17
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If you look at the trends, the people that buy, and keep, the nice gear say things like "I like nice gear... it works" and the guys that say "I can do it without expensive gear" focus on the fact that the expensive gear is expensive... as if that's some sort of down side. I misinterpreted the The OP question as if it was asking if people still buy outboard gear. The answer to that is a clear "yes". Here's some evidence: It's $19,000, the retail price seems to be arbitrarily supported by the existing demand for the old beat up units. This version was introduced recently, and there is a waiting list if YOU want to buy one:  I can't afford one, but that doesn't seem like a good reason for me to dismiss it's existence as if it has been replaced on some time line of technological evolution by a plug in. The people buying these units seem to like them ok. all the best, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2012/01/05 07:45:37
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 08:22:28
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"Some guys like to color the sound before it gets to disc, others like to do it after."
Two things,
1) I use outboard gear and I'm not trying to "color" my sound... I just like it to sound real good.
2) I do not think one can both fully really appreciate the incredibly nuanced and subtle difference in tonality one can get by switching a mic between a Chandler TG2, a Great River MP-2NV, or a API 3124+ and also hope to discover the same sort of subtle nuanced difference in post using some sort of plugin. You only get one opportunity to capture the lows and mids with all the subtle beauty that the full powered preamps help with.
The opportunity to make such a subtle and influential decision is lost if you mollify the sound energy with a nominally powered price point integrated circuit.
You can make lots of art in post after that... but when you listen it's probably not going to be a "being there" experience.
I like having the option of being able to say it's finished when we hit stop on the transport.
best regards,
mike
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 09:05:32
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I think you're missing the point. All the stuff you guys mention is true....however, all I'm merely trying to say is it doesn't have to be done as destructively. If one doesn't use outboard gear for coloration, why use it? What makes it so much better? Yes, it's the same as printing a guitar sound with a chorus like mentioned...however, the same rules apply...if you over process and make the wrong call, you have to perfrom surgery or re-print it. What I'm saying is you don't need a 5k outboard device to achieve these results.
If you feel the need to spend money on outboard gear and allow it to do what it does on the way in, that's perfectly fine. I'm not disputing that. I'm saying...it's not needed, it's a choice or a flavor, if you will. I'm also saying that if you have the right plugs that were made to simulate what some of these pieces of gear do, you're even better off because the differences will not be outstanding in *MOST* scenarios.
I'm also saying....for those that have pricey (or not pricey outboard gear) gear that works and they love it, with the right plugs you can come close to simulating it for a fraction of the cost and have more units at your disopsal that are non-destructive. What does the analog gear do? It colors...it saturates, and it has a sound character. Tell me that this cannot be simulated to where it can sound close is my argument. I've done it...many times. Anyone disputing the info I've shared needs to try a few UAD plugs and see for themselves.
I say again...create a project using all your best stuff...then redo the project using plugs that were made to simulate and see how close you can come to coloration, eq, and saturation. That's what outboard units do, they color. The colors they add are characters of eq...the saturation they add is a character of circuitry or tube coloration which is....eq, compression and filtering. This CAN be closely achieved without spending money on said devices. It will not be exact, but then again it depends on how hard you try to simulate what these devices do that makes them so different. The difference will not be as great as people think.
These outboard devices don't make sounds bigger....they color them with a good signal. That's all they do. If you have a good signal going to disc and good plugs that can manipulate the signal correctly as well as you knowing what to do, you can get just about any sound you want/need within reason. Try it and see...seriously. You really don't think we can take a few UAD plugs and eq, color and saturate close enough to simulate what a piece of hardware gear is doing?
I'll man up for the challenge...anyone want to post a clip of something they think I can't get using my UAD plugs and other tools? Post up your clip using your hardware gear then send me the actual recorded instrument without any hardware processing that used the same mic in the same position on the same day. Guaranteed I come so close or nail it in an hour or less, you won't be able to tell a major difference. The only people that will make a stink and disagree are those so set in their ways they're gear snobs that won't admit defeat because....well, I'm Danny and you know, I always talk big and everyone would love to see me fail. But I'm used to that in life....it goes with the territory of being me. :)
-Danny
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 10:50:20
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A Challenge? More like a double dare... I don't like posting this stuff because it is someone else's property... but here's a little snippet of something I have sitting on the drive today. It's only 2 microphones... so you probably will not have any trouble recreating the magic: http://harmoniccycle.com/...v/countryblue-test.wav best regards, mike
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 11:17:34
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Hahah we all like a challenge. :) Good sound there....the challenge part I was trying to get was....I'd need 2 files. One that shows what you're happy with...and then the same recording of the instrument without the analog processing, know what I mean? Like for example...
File 1: This is a guitar sound I recorded sending my mic into a pre and than into this compressor.
File 2: This is the same sound going straight into my soundcard or straight into insert weapon of choice to just print the raw sound to disc.
Understand what I mean? What I want to show is how we can get the sound close to what the analog processing is doing.
Like...the reverse of this could be:
File 1: In this file, I stuck a 57 on a 25 watt Greenback cab and just fed it into one of the pre's on my console to get it up to a good recording level without using any eq or excessive board pre-gain. This is what it sounds like just capturing the sound to the best of my ability without any coloration.
Your response would be:
File 2: Ok, this is your guitar tone processed through this mic pre or API compressor (etc.)
You'd be showing me what your analog gear does to my signal. In MY challenge, I wanted to hear the opposite. You give me a sound using your gear to make it the way you like it, and then you give me the same instrument you printed without passing it through an analog chain. My task is to make the signal that hasn't been passed through the analog chain to end up sounding like the one you posted using the analog chain. Understand what I mean now?
Recreating what you presented here physically would be near impossible for me. I'd need a guitar that sounded like that as well as a female voice. LOL! My thing was to try and make something that isn't analog colored to sound like it was processed through the analog gear using plugs...with me now? :)
-Danny
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Starise
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 11:43:44
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The original question posed was ,"Is outboard gear still viable?" The answer could be yes or no depending. I already knew that Mike was big into the whole electronic end of recording and ampfixer is as well,so your answers are not surprising to me in the least. I suspect a few others are close to the distribution end of some of this gear and it is a sensitive area to tread into for some......I maybe didn't help things any by what seemed to be a bad assessment of audio gear pricing by mentioning that I thought some gear was overpriced. Manufacturing in general is struggling every place except China it seems and makers want to sell and not be told their products cost too much...so I never intended to do anything other than voice my opinions. I could have been clearer in my ideas and more specific and I almost posted a few examples of what I consider to be overpriced gear complete with links, but I don't think that would have made any difference because some of you would have said that the gear is worth every penny,and some would see my point. FWIW I have owned a few Behringer items but they are last on my list of candidates for new gear. I have an old 24 channel mixer in my garage right now with three dead channels lol.......I never intended to convey that the total cost of gear is all in materials alone. What I intended to convey was that the kind of gear that you have to make a special phone call at a national distributor to get is already in another category. This is the category I am talking about. For the most part, the gear you get in a catalog commonly in stock is priced at a decent range and it is in stock for a reason.....because they are moving it. Why? because it does what it is supposed to do almost as well as the gear you need to call the CEO to get. In order to answer the question,"Is outboard gear still viable?" I think the largest factors are quality competition and pricing.I answered the question Ampfixer was asking thinking he was asking it because he was considering manufacturing gear himself and pretending it was me building the gear.... IMHO outboard gear has a chance but I guess it depends on the market you target and it will be an uphill battle for the same reasons Danny mentioned,I mean Sonar doesn't ship with a fairchild 670 or an avalon . It does ship with a few decent plugs. It's kinda like putting the mp3 up against the CD. Who is going to win that one? With all due respect to Mike,ampfixer,doddy and the others,the Mp3 is inferior to CD audio but has it really hurt sales of mp3s? People will go with what works for the best price and is the most efficient....add to this the KNOWN FACT that plugs are as good in most cases as the real thing and in many cases are more versital, so in the comparison of mp3 to CD , the gap is much narrower with hardware/software. Add to this the fact that editing is non-destructive and hardware has to work really hard to be popular in the circles that count. I guess engineers who mix their music all on analog develop a way to play those boxes like instruments, but in my case I might record something and tweak it into hardware and it sounds wonderful that day, but the next evening when I replay it I want to change something and if I went through hardware I'm screwed. Batsbrew I heard your music and it is excellent so I know things can sound good old school but I have neither the time nor the gear to do that.So I use plugs for compression and eq. It's funny what some good engineers use to get what they term a good sound and some of the stuff they use is very unorthodox. I have had pretty good results when miking I use a TC Helicon live vocal box. It was intended for live use but it sounds really good patched into my reasonably priced Presonus. The TC helicon costed me maybe less that 200 dollars and I'm happy as a pig in poo with it.The preamps in my Presonus Firestudio are nothing to sneeze at either. So I see hardware still moving and making engineers money if manufactured and priced for the masses. I don't see those 19,000 dollar compressors jumping off the shelf in this market.
post edited by Starise - 2012/01/05 11:48:53
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 12:04:00
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Starise
The original question posed was ,"Is outboard gear still viable?" The answer could be yes or no depending.
I already knew that Mike was big into the whole electronic end of recording and ampfixer is as well,so your answers are not surprising to me in the least. I suspect a few others are close to the distribution end of some of this gear and it is a sensitive area to tread into for some......I maybe didn't help things any by what seemed to be a bad assessment of audio gear pricing by mentioning that I thought some gear was overpriced. Manufacturing in general is struggling every place except China it seems and makers want to sell and not be told their products cost too much...so I never intended to do anything other than voice my opinions.
I could have been clearer in my ideas and more specific and I almost posted a few examples of what I consider to be overpriced gear complete with links, but I don't think that would have made any difference because some of you would have said that the gear is worth every penny,and some would see my point.
FWIW I have owned a few Behringer items but they are last on my list of candidates for new gear. I have an old 24 channel mixer in my garage right now with three dead channels lol.......I never intended to convey that the total cost of gear is all in materials alone.
What I intended to convey was that the kind of gear that you have to make a special phone call at a national distributor to get is already in another category. This is the category I am talking about. For the most part, the gear you get in a catalog commonly in stock is priced at a decent range and it is in stock for a reason.....because they are moving it. Why? because it does what it is supposed to do almost as well as the gear you need to call the CEO to get.
In order to answer the question,"Is outboard gear still viable?" I think the largest factors are quality competition and pricing.I answered the question Ampfixer was asking thinking he was asking it because he was considering manufacturing gear himself and pretending it was me building the gear....
IMHO outboard gear has a chance but I guess it depends on the market you target and it will be an uphill battle for the same reasons Danny mentioned,I mean Sonar doesn't ship with a fairchild 670 or an avalon . It does ship with a few decent plugs. It's kinda like putting the mp3 up against the CD. Who is going to win that one? With all due respect to Mike,ampfixer,doddy and the others,the Mp3 is inferior to CD audio but has it really hurt sales of mp3s? People will go with what works for the best price and is the most efficient....add to this the KNOWN FACT that plugs are as good in most cases as the real thing and in many cases are more versital, so in the comparison of mp3 to CD , the gap is much narrower with hardware/software. Add to this the fact that editing is non-destructive and hardware has to work really hard to be popular in the circles that count.
I guess engineers who mix their music all on analog develop a way to play those boxes like instruments, but in my case I might record something and tweak it into hardware and it sounds wonderful that day, but the next evening when I replay it I want to change something and if I went through hardware I'm screwed. Batsbrew I heard your music and it is excellent so I know things can sound good old school but I have neither the time nor the gear to do that.So I use plugs for compression and eq.
It's funny what some good engineers use to get what they term a good sound and some of the stuff they use is very unorthodox. I have had pretty good results when milking I use a TC Helicon live vocal box. It was intended for live use but it sounds really good patched into my reasonably priced Presonus. The TC helicon costed me maybe less that 200 dollars and I'm happy as a pig in poo with it.The preamps in my Presonus Firestudio are nothing to sneeze at either.
So I see hardware still moving and making engineers money if manufactured and priced for the masses. I don't see those 19,000 dollar compressors jumping off the shelf in this market.
Well said Starise. At the end of the day, there are people who are as passionate about their outboard gear as those who have ditched it for plugs. I think Ampfixer can create a market for himself if he can design pieces that make a difference. I think we're still 10-15 years away from people totally giving up their outboard gear...maybe even longer. It's like any business we get in when there is competition though. You have to have something that sticks out above your competition. Or, you have to maybe duplicate famous gear and sell it for a fraction of the price. Like Im sure Ampfixer can probably cop schematics of famous gear and change it up a bit so it's not an exact cop. Maybe "his flavor" on a piece that with a few dial tweaks, could end up sounding like something famous. One thing I've learned in business is the majority of people will always favor quantity over quality especially in economic times like this. The key to it there is to deliver something that truly works that is affordable. Bad example here, but when I owned my family business years ago, we sold all high end cleaning products. You know...top of the line stuff. Scott Paper products, Windex, Lysol, you name it, I sold it. We had a Dollar store open up across the street from us. Why by by pricey stuff when you can get something fairly close for way less? This is the market we live in today. The other side of the coin is...the REAL cleaning companies wanted REAL cleaning supplies. So they would buy the top of the line stuff from me. The regular consumers, I lost because it's just not the same need for them. They'd rather buy John Q's $1.50 cleaner instead of a $10 gallon of Lysol. So the question I would think Ampfixer has to ask himself is...do I want to do the boutique thing and sell maybe 25 units per year at a high price, or do I want to do something anyone can afford and sell more units per yer? Or...try to do both. It all depends what you can afford and how deep you want to go. We tried that in my cleaning business. We figured...ok, we're losing the regular customers, so we'll go find some cheaper stuff. It sold like mad and I got a majority of those customers back. Little did they know, they consumed more of this stuff resulting in nearly the same amount spent or more. They didn't want to buy Scott kitchen towels for $40 per case of 30 rolls, so they bought this other stuff for $19 for a case of 24 that you'd need to use 3 sheets or more to wipe your hands with because they had the absorbtion of a tree leaf. LOL! But in today's times, I really think it's all about being able to afford something that is built well that also really works and makes a difference. The other tough thing is establishing enough of a name to be able to cover costs if you get into the high end boutique business. If people know who you are and you deliver the goods, you'll always sell what you have. I just read something in Car and Driver that Lamborghini was releasing some special version of one of their cars. They will only be building like 30 of them and they will sell for 1.5 mil. In the caption...it read "by the time you guys read this issue, we've been told that all of them are sold already so don't expect to buy one". LMAO! If you make it and it's good...people will spend, that's for sure. :) -Danny
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spacey
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 12:18:20
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I'm really enjoying your position Danny.
I also believe that we have the digital abilities to be very content with the results
compared to analog.
I also think your "test" is very cool. I believe the outcome, should the test be completed, will be that; you will have a digital processed comparison that will be so close that the only way to know the difference is to know what equipment was used for each.
I've been saying the exact same thing around here for years....we have the digital tools
to mock any analog sound- it's success is determined by the user.
I think we will always have a need and desire for hardware but I have know idea
if there is a market for those that build hardware. Way to many factors that aren't known
by me.
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Starise
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 12:31:28
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Danny your post does make me feel a little bad for the guys out there trying to make good gear and a living at the same time. You seen this in your family business and I see this in the gear market too. Those big studios with deep pockets are going away, but there are still a few around.
I think competition and better manufacturing techniques have made more choices for all of us.
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 12:40:13
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spacey
I'm really enjoying your position Danny.
I also believe that we have the digital abilities to be very content with the results
compared to analog.
I also think your "test" is very cool. I believe the outcome, should the test be completed, will be that; you will have a digital processed comparison that will be so close that the only way to know the difference is to know what equipment was used for each.
I've been saying the exact same thing around here for years....we have the digital tools
to mock any analog sound- it's success is determined by the user.
I think we will always have a need and desire for hardware but I have know idea
if there is a market for those that build hardware. Way to many factors that aren't known
by me.
Thanks, I've really been enjoying the whole thing too! And yeah, you nailed exactly what I'm trying to say. We're all passionate at the end of the day. And no one should be force fed to use one thing or another. Whatever works is what's best for an individual at all times. There are people though (not necessarily in this thread because I think all of us respect each others skills here and we all know what we're talking about and doing) that just snub their noses at everything. I know a friend who's a fantastic engineer...but if you don't own the stuff he owns, everything you have, no matter WHAT is it...it's crap to him. LOL! He won't try anything new, he won't listen to reason and in his mind, it's tunnel vision. Spacey, I can't tell you what an accomplishment it was for me to bring him back guitar tracks simulating mic'd cabs and a Manley pre we had done in his studio. I was working on a project with this guy and we had all these mic's all over the room etc. Each time we had to break them down and set them back up the next day, we got different tones. Even with tape, markings, we took pictures, taped stands...measured....everything you could think of...it never sounded the same and man, it was getting on my nerves. So I took the tracks we did there home and experimented until I copped the exact tones he was getting. When I brought them back to him and he compared them, for the first time in my life I saw a look of confusion on his face. He was trying so hard to tell the difference and finally caved in and said "ok, you got me...I don't know how you did it, but you did it". So I said "well, just pick one that you think is the mic'd version you did with all the pricey stuff." The one he picked...you guessed it...speaker sim. LOL! Now granted, it took me some time to get that...it wasn't a walk in the park and I had to use 2 different impulses, the Studer 800, a Pultec Pro and a Fatzo Jr...but I did it. :) So the point in a nutshell...whether I do this test or not, I think we all know it can be done to an extent. So a test really isn't necessary. We have to respect both forms of recording...which I certainly do coming from an analog world originally, but I've embraced the digital age because it gives me other options that are (to me) just as good while saving me loads of money to spend on other things. :) At the end of the day, most of the people taking part in this thread are all really good engineers. We're going to get good sounds whether we use top end stuff, or a stock Realtek soundcard. The 10% difference we may hear using pricey outboard gear may or may not make things better. It depends who's turning the dials. :) -Danny
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 12:47:59
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Starise
Danny your post does make me feel a little bad for the guys out there trying to make good gear and a living at the same time. You seen this in your family business and I see this in the gear market too. Those big studios with deep pockets are going away, but there are still a few around.
I think competition and better manufacturing techniques have made more choices for all of us.
I used to feel that way too Starise. But you know...they know this going into it. Look at SSL. Can you remember affordable SSL stuff? I can't either until a few years ago. They knew that they would crumble if they just stayed with strictly high end gear. They know that they will always have their pro users...but if there are not enough of them, that's when you have to jump on the bandwagon and give the other people something. The good thing about SSL, they made a name for themselves so if you buy something from them that is lower end, it's still going to be great. I think anyone that doesn't jump on this train is in for a dismal end. Even the pricey car manufacturers are doing this. Porche has lower end vehicles, Jaguar, Lotus, the list goes on and on. 15 years ago you couldn't get any of those vehicles for under 120k, ya know? Now most of them have base models at 60 or 70k which opens up an entirely different market. We need the same thing here with the analog gear if at all possible. That way, people will never have to dream about it or buy plug sims that sometimes don't really come close. You can just buy the hardware piece and not look at it like a downpayment on a car or a house. LOL! -Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2012/01/05 13:01:20
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 13:46:48
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I still think the better the music and the performance delivery, the emotion in the final playing/singing etc the much less important any of this becomes and I find that interesting in itself. This is where I want to spend time and energy, its the best place to spend time and energy. If you are capturing mediocre music and performances even with the finest mikes and Pres the end result is still pretty mediocre no matter how you look at it. Mike talks about hearing the subtle differences between this very nice Mic pre and that Mic pre but if you are tracking an absolutley amazing and really fine singer who is really delivering the goods (emotionally) then you can still capture that with a Rode NT1 and a cheap transisitor or OP Amp Mic pre. I mentioned this on another thread but maybe this is a better place to do it. Check out 'Old Jack Frost' (and 'Song I Sing to You') here: (from latest Dan Lethbridge CD, 'OH Hawke' that I recently mastered. http://soundcloud.com/jeff-evans I will make them downloadable so you can download them and listen to the higher res file. This was all done with a Rode NT 1 mike (about $300 here) and all these tracks were recorded with just that Mike and into a cheapish Fostex all in studio type device with probably pretty average Mic Pres on board especially if you compared them to the finest outboard units that have been mentioned here. The tracks were all transferred over to Pro Tools and some nice plugs were used all over them. Does it sound OK now. I say yes and very very nice in fact. Dan's song and delivery really totally over ride any aspect of the technical stuff. It sort of comes across. He just moved the mike around a lot from track to track. Danny how much processing do you do in terms of say having a lot of plugs going on while on the way into the DAW and you are hearing any effects processing live. Maybe the reason a lot of people use outboard on the way into their DAW's is because all that processing is very fast latency wise and is very satisfying to hear all that. But if you can monitor at blistering input monitoring latencies and you set up these effects as you are gong in and hearing all them too. I am very impressed at how fast a Pro Tools setup is on a very fast Mac and how quick all the effects processing live can be. PT has all this input latency stuff well and truely sorted.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2012/01/05 13:52:29
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Middleman
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 13:54:21
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Yeah, this whole which is better is kind of pointless. People who have lot's of experience here are still going to line up on their side of the fence. This is so genre specific as well. All I know is that I started out hardware, spent 10 years fighting plugins and have over the last two years started moving back to hardware. The primary reason is time. I don't want to spend the hours required to get a sonic-wise pleasing product and that's where plugins lead to on every project. I noticed that my projects started to sound like an emulation of the result I wanted versus being on a competitive level with the type of professional work I admired. It sounded good but I felt after a while I was falling in with the crowd that accepts the kind of results that plugins provide. Take for example "Beautiful" sung by Christine Aguilera mixed by the king of plug in users, Dave Pensado. First let me say I have a deep respect for Dave and his work but that song is a perfect example of what I don't like about plugins. It takes an incredible performance and dumbs it down to a vibe level for the less sophisticated vibe listener. In my opinion it's like dressing a pig in jewels. I know people rave about it as an amazing mix done all ITB but in my mind art has been compromised. That song would have been epic over time versus the short popularity it had if plugins had not been involved, once again my opinion. There is no right or wrong answer but endlessly tweaking software plugins takes too long to get good decent results and the outcome just occasionally produces timeless art in my opinion and experience. Automating EQ, automating compression, automating FX, it's madness I tell you, madness.
post edited by Middleman - 2012/01/05 13:57:24
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droddey
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 14:29:21
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Jeff Evans
I still think the better the music and the performance delivery, the emotion in the final playing/singing etc the much less important any of this becomes and I find that interesting in itself. This is where I want to spend time and energy, its the best place to spend time and energy. If you are capturing mediocre music and performances even with the finest mikes and Pres the end result is still pretty mediocre no matter how you look at it.
Mike talks about hearing the subtle differences between this very nice Mic pre and that Mic pre but if you are tracking an absolutley amazing and really fine singer who is really delivering the goods (emotionally) then you can still capture that with a Rode NT1 and a cheap transisitor or OP Amp Mic pre.
The thing is, everyone says this, but we all know that digital isn't so popular today because everyone is doing killer music, incredibly well performed and caputred, so therefore they don't need hardly any processing anyway so why not do it digitally. It's just the opposite. The vast majority of people are using it so that they can fold, spindle, and mutilate stuff that was recorded piecemeal without making hardly any decisions up front, and turn it into something in which all timing issues have been removed, all pitch issues have been removed, drums have been replaced, background vocals artifically aligned to the lead vocal, all with huge amounts of automation to make it sound like the people playing it had actually bothered to even work out a real arrangement, and then crushed to within an inch of its life. And of course listeners are happy with it, for the same reasons they are happy with McDonalds, and they have to actually pay for the burgers at McDonalds. So it creates a race to the bottom and that drives quality studios out of business because people will go to the guy with the cracked Waves Diamond bundle and the laptop and do it for $50 a song instead, since everyone 'knows' that none of that stuff matters anymore anyway.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 15:35:02
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"My thing was to try and make something that isn't analog colored to sound like it was processed through the analog gear using plugs...with me now? :)"
:-)
Hi Danny, yes, I think I'm with you... however, I cut straight to the heart of the matter.
That track I posted was 2 microphones, two preamps, and much to my dismay, the engineer on record ran it through a software limiter at mild settings before passing out advance copies.
So there it is... there was no post processing or specific coloring done... no EQ in pre or post, nothing like that.
I'm not saying it's great, or even good... it is what it is.
All I'm saying is that I am waiting to see if someone with a similar guitar and similar vocalist can get that raw naked sound and have it sound good, or maybe great, or at least ok.
I know how easy it was to get it the way we did it. :-)
I don't know if you can get that sort of sound using plugins after the fact... but if it is possible then I'm sure someone here at the forum can do it.
So I offered this as an example to consider.
I simply posted a example of a type of sound character that I personally don't think can be captured or created with the stuff that is engineered specifically to sound good for less money.
If I'm wrong then I'm wrong... luckily all my gear is paid for. :-)
In the meantime I'm thinking that I can hear a difference, especially in the details of the low mid frequencies... and I have plenty of the stuff that is engineered to sound good for less money to compare against any so called hi-end gear I might have so I'm kinda comfortable with having a personal opinion on the subject.
all the very best,
mike
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 16:00:53
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"I still think the better the music and the performance delivery, the emotion in the final playing/singing etc the much less important any of this becomes and I find that interesting in itself." A couple years ago this was was released http://www.amazon.com/Unr...1E4437W/ref=pd_sim_m_4  and the listening public suddenly had double the amount of Hank Williams recordings available for listening pleasure. The thing is all these recordings were made direct to acetate disk and were used for one time play back as broadcasts of "live to tape" or "as live" performances. These were recorded at the radio station across the street from the recording studio where the same songs were recorded to be sold as recordings. The disks were about to be thrown out a while ago when some wonderful person saved them and got them to the Williams family. I'm glossing over a bunch of details that someone may enjoy reading about in detail. Anyways, the point I want to make is that the acetate recordings are wonderful in that the performances far surpass the traditionally known recordings of the very same songs. What happened is that the traditionally known recordings were made at the recording studio and then Hank Williams put his band on the road. Then while the songs were popular on the radio and the band was polished from constant performance they would occasionally return to town and make a series of direct to acetate show segments to be broadcast "as live" as a radio show. They would perform the most popular songs that they were playing live to audiences each night. The recordings are marvelous. The timing of the rhythm section is perfectly sublime with a soft pulse that leaves you breathless. Hank's singing is awesome... he's in the zone and he's darn near perfect. Of course, if you want to enjoy any of this you have to be able to listen through the constant static and hiss that is now embedded in the 60 year old acetate disks. (which were considered disposable when they were made). I bought the box set the week it came out and have enjoyed it much more than the traditionally known versions of the recordings because the performance is so nearly perfect in an an organic, humane, down to earth way. How's That? all the best, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2012/01/05 17:17:58
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AT
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 17:26:40
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Yea mike, I have dumped some of my old vinyl to CD and on down to an mp3 player and I thoroughly enjoy the scratches and hiss etc., like an old friend. Underneath the noise is a certain analog sound, but the main thing is I don't bother with the songs I don't like.
The Hank story of those recordings are good, too. I might have to buy that collection since the one I have is from vinyl and worse for wear. I think I got it in the 70s for my father. It doesn't really matter the shape that the recordings are in - he is simply genius and would be on a paper cup phone line. Unfortunately, few of us are that good.
@
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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ampfixer
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 18:11:49
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Wow, you guys are redefining the word passionate. Please don't get your knickers in a knot over this because life is too short. I can't agree or disagree with anything said so far, it's all good to me as are all of you. My work with sonar up to 2010 has been to use it for recording audio tests of my equipment and I'm working on a new idea for evaluating tube characteristics using Sonar. I've only just got back into music since my MIDI days in the 80's and have to say that I don't think MIDI editing has evolved much since those days. Audio recording has evolved big time thanks to advances in hardware and software and outboard gear has also evolved. I don't know if it's any better but it certainly is cheaper up front. The up front part is critical to me. The up front charge is what kills the independent builder. People have less money in their pockets today than they did 20 years ago so they have to buy for their budget. I can't make stuff and compete with green board builders in China based on price. It's impossible and I refuse to entrust my product's reputation to the Chinese. I know a fellow that designed a great stomp box. In order to get sales he had to cut costs and went to China to build his stuff. The prototypes were great and the off he went. The first container arrived and he was out of business. He put all his money into this product launch and got a container filled with junk. Hardly any of the boxes worked and many were not completely assembled. It turns out the Chinese plant had subbed it out to Vietnam and they suggested that he chase them for restitution. There was no paper trail available and he had no recourse. Try to sue somebody in China and see how far you get. OK, here's the issue. I build stuff that is designed for minimum down time and when it does break, it's designed to be completely servicable. One screwdriver and an adjustable wrench to do complete dis-assembly, the pots and jacks are the same ones you use in an electric guitar so you can get them at musicians friend and readily available tubes. Everything is wired by hand with no boards of any kind and I use caps and resistors that have been selected based on empirical testing and listening. I spent 2 years developing my studio amp and have had one on the road in test for 3 years, logging thousands of miles in a van. So far the only failure has been a set of tubes and faulty switchcraft jacks. As it turns out the bad jacks were not made in the USA at all but were "switchcraft". Since I have changed my ordering to indicate USA only there have been no issues although I'm on the lookout for a good replacement. That's TMI but I'm trying to frame the discussion. I would sell that amp with a single 12 cab for $1,500. I think it's a great deal given that they essentially are warranted for life and I drill every hole mount all the components and wire it by hand. People are still telling me it's too expensive because they can buy a 100 watt Buguerra for less than $500. It's not a fair comparison at all. Try and get support when the head office is in the US Virgin Islands. When I visit studio's I often see the Nieve console's with channels missing. I found out that they remove channels on a regular intervals for cleaning and new caps. The bill for this work is not cheap. That's what I want in all my equipment but so far, studios seem to be the only place where people want to spend good money on good gear. I'm not about to try building massive consoles but maybe some high quality tube pre's and/or compressor/limiter units. That's the entire background, and what I'm really wondering when I ask if outboard gear is viable. I think it may be the last viable place for a guy that wants to do high quality work with reasonable compensation. Based on what I'm hearing, I think that I have a chance if I can make something that a guy will adopt as his/her dirty little secret in the recording business. Thanks everyone. 
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 18:55:28
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Hi John,
It might amuse you to learn that I've spent the past few days free time trying to track down a problem on a Princeton Reverb reissue I was asked to help with. When I said yes I thought I was being asked to fix an old beater.
Instead I'm working on recent printed circuit board amp that is presenting intermittent problems and I am faced with having to pull the board just to check the solder joints properly.
Fun times!
:-)
best regards,
mike
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droddey
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/05 19:32:24
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ampfixer
That's the entire background, and what I'm really wondering when I ask if outboard gear is viable. I think it may be the last viable place for a guy that wants to do high quality work with reasonable compensation. Based on what I'm hearing, I think that I have a chance if I can make something that a guy will adopt as his/her dirty little secret in the recording business.
Thanks everyone.
I think that the issue of whether outboard gear is still viable is a moot point if this is what you are trying to figure out. I wouldn't do it for other reasons, being that the field is already too crowded. At best you'd be a very small fish in a crowded pond unless you went in with a lot of money to make a big splash, and the likelihood of that happening is very small unless you just happen to be wealthy and don't mind risking losing it all. There are a lot of small, boutique companies out there, making less expensive stuff to sell into the home studio market. Probably none of them are making much money at all. The big ones are the ones generally who have either been in it for a long time or who come from some high end pedigree of previous years, e.g. Rupert Neve, Great River, Chandler, Aurora, SSL, Neve. The rest is divided among quite a lot of small companies, who are probably not THAT far beyond a couple guys with soldering irons. Oh, BTW, if you are good with a soldering iron, you can do that Fairchild 670 clone for about $5K from Drip Electronics.
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ampfixer
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/06 00:15:11
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mike_mccue
Hi John,
It might amuse you to learn that I've spent the past few days free time trying to track down a problem on a Princeton Reverb reissue I was asked to help with. When I said yes I thought I was being asked to fix an old beater.
Instead I'm working on recent printed circuit board amp that is presenting intermittent problems and I am faced with having to pull the board just to check the solder joints properly.
Fun times!
:-)
best regards,
mike
I completely understand Mike. Most mass produced amps run the risk of collateral damage when doing repair that should be simple. A good example would be most of the stuff that Orange makes today. They have high voltage fuses and they are mounted directly to the circuit board. Because they are a push and twist type of holder and are not connected to the chassis... well, they break easily, particularly when a musician tries to change one at a gig in low light. Don't get me wrong, I like their stuff, it sounds good. But changing the $1.50 fuse holder requires removal of the board. You have to detach every front and back panel connection and remove the board. In doing so you have potential damage to all the solder connections for the pots, jacks etc. There's a thriving aftermarket industry making upgrade parts that address the shortcomings of modern amps. I still think the Fender product line is pretty good. More Hot Rod amps have been sold than anything they ever made in the glory years. I think I have to change my name from ampfixer to ampcurmudgeon. 
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/06 03:30:16
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Jeff Evans
Danny how much processing do you do in terms of say having a lot of plugs going on while on the way into the DAW and you are hearing any effects processing live. Maybe the reason a lot of people use outboard on the way into their DAW's is because all that processing is very fast latency wise and is very satisfying to hear all that. But if you can monitor at blistering input monitoring latencies and you set up these effects as you are gong in and hearing all them too. I am very impressed at how fast a Pro Tools setup is on a very fast Mac and how quick all the effects processing live can be. PT has all this input latency stuff well and truely sorted.
Hi Jeff....most of the time for myself, no processing at all other than a slight hardware compressor going in just to condition the signal slightly and keep my levels where they need to be. However, I have plenty of horsepower if I need to run my plugs in real time and do that for clients all the time if/when they need it. I've actually been processing drum kits a bit to pump drummers up instead of giving them a raw drum sound all the time. I keep getting "man, I can't believe how great this kit sounds in my headphones...can I take it home with me!" Any eq-ing I may do is of course non-destructive and most times I'm just high passing a kick drum or something if it has a little extra boom to it. I sometimes like to create a nice instrument sound so it's inspiring when people play. None of that stays though as I'll have to work the instruments different once I get to the mix part. I also completely agree with your player performance comment. I can't tell you how important that is bro. Take a guy like me as an example...no matter what I seem to plug into amp wise, I'm cursed with sounding like me. LOL! I might not be what is considered a high caliber player, but my performance is always decent and consistent so it really helps with a recording no matter what I use. I can always get decent to better than average results. I've recorded guys with really good sounds that weren't as well rehearsed as they should have been for their studio time. Even with good tones, if the performance isn't quite there...it can definitely throw a monkey wrench into things. As for the MAC and PT thing...you can get the same results out of a well set up pc running Sonar, that's for sure. I have 3 monster pc rigs, one which was built by Jim Roseberry...and I sort of copied what he did on that one with the other 2. No problems at 64 samples with loads of effects in real time while recording as well as UAD plugs. We also have a MAC Pro quad core for PT 10 that we use for clients that are hell bent on PT or have projects created using it. We are trying to phase all that out though because thankfully on my end of the business with my clients, it's me they trust in over the software. I remember when I used to get calls asking "you got pro tools?" if you said no...you heard "click". So I've always had it for those situations. But these days we barely get any of those calls. They just want to record or most people come to us with .OMF files...which we usually would do anyway to get their projects out of pro tools. My other engineer at the new studio is the PT monster. But since I've switched him back to Sonar (he started with Sonar years ago and had issues, so he abandoned it) he's loving it...especially X1. You get your pc sorted like mine Jeff and I promise you'll enjoy the same thing you see in PT. :) Heck man, I don't even use Sonar x64 and still have no issues. As a matter of fact, for the stuff I do, I like Sonar 32 better. -Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/06 03:44:47
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mike_mccue
"My thing was to try and make something that isn't analog colored to sound like it was processed through the analog gear using plugs...with me now? :)"
:-)
Hi Danny, yes, I think I'm with you... however, I cut straight to the heart of the matter.
That track I posted was 2 microphones, two preamps, and much to my dismay, the engineer on record ran it through a software limiter at mild settings before passing out advance copies.
So there it is... there was no post processing or specific coloring done... no EQ in pre or post, nothing like that.
I'm not saying it's great, or even good... it is what it is.
All I'm saying is that I am waiting to see if someone with a similar guitar and similar vocalist can get that raw naked sound and have it sound good, or maybe great, or at least ok.
I know how easy it was to get it the way we did it. :-)
I don't know if you can get that sort of sound using plugins after the fact... but if it is possible then I'm sure someone here at the forum can do it.
So I offered this as an example to consider.
I simply posted a example of a type of sound character that I personally don't think can be captured or created with the stuff that is engineered specifically to sound good for less money.
If I'm wrong then I'm wrong... luckily all my gear is paid for. :-)
In the meantime I'm thinking that I can hear a difference, especially in the details of the low mid frequencies... and I have plenty of the stuff that is engineered to sound good for less money to compare against any so called hi-end gear I might have so I'm kinda comfortable with having a personal opinion on the subject.
all the very best,
mike
And I appreciate that, thanks! I enjoyed that sample, thanks for sharing it. It's a nice, warm, in your face, up close and personal, no bells and whistles, good performance. :) I definitely think I could come close to that Mike....honest. The thing I'd miss out on is I don't have an acoustic guitar with a sound like that unfortunately. I actually tried to see if I could get close...but my 3 acoustics I have here are either too bright and ringy or too dark and moody. You know how that clip you played just has a certain characteristic due to the guitar, the player and the strings used? That, I can't cop unless I have a similar guitar. But the warmth and gentle soft clipping there....oh yeah man, I definitely think the Fatso Sr. would nail that with the Studer or an 1176, an LA2A or even a Fairchild. See here's the thing with the UAD stuff. The Studer has that tape saturation type sound down. The cool thing about that is...you don't have to make it dominant. You can use it as an added little bit of "zing" so to speak and it doesn't sound like those other saturators people are bragging about these days. At least they don't sound good to me. The Fatso has this other type of soft clipping along with a warmth control over the circuitry. Honest Mike, if you buy 2 plugs and get the cheapest UAD set-up, get the Studer and the Fatso if you're into the analog thing. They are both really scary. The cool thing about the Studer is, you have control over how you hear that "zing" I mentioned. Between tape bias, callibration and all the other cool tweaks you can make inside that plug, it really scared me when I first used it. Sync head, repro head...it's definitely a must try/must have. It literally copped that tape sound and did it in a good way. Add in the controls like I said and this thing is really killer. The thing I like about the Fatso is how it too gives you a little "zing" but it's different. And, you have some control over it as well as far as how the circuits are shaping the sound. Between both of those killer processers, if you need a little more to literally sculpt a tone to make it a bit more analog eq wise, the Manley or a Pultec Pro work wonders here...or even the Trident or NEVE eq's are hott little pieces. Granted, I know....it may take a bit more work to sculpt an analog sound where it would be much easier to just plug right in and get it. I'm with you there....however, some people will never have the cash to "just plug right in and get it" so this can definitely make it an extremely close second...and that's really all I'm trying to say. :) Heck, if you fall short there yet feel you're close...you can always run the file you're trying to nail through HAR-BAL and fine tune things a little more. I know...that's kinda cheating...but again, if it's dollar vs. dollar and a person may not have that dollar amount and maybe they don't want or have the space for the gear, we do have some really nice alternatives that can at least come close. :) -Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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Guitpicker
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/15 23:20:51
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This is a really great forum topic. I actually just joined to get in on this conversation. There's a lot of helpful comments on this discussion thread, and I enjoy learning about your experiences with gear. I think the bane of this whole topic is trends. This is something that I've fallen into, and I'm sure most of you have as well at sometime. I've gotten rid of some great and faithful gear because at that time, I thought it was a good idea. Oh how our ears can trick us. Digital technology is great, and it has a lot of benefits, but I think it's got a lot of downsides if taken too far. There's something about moving air with mics, and using outboard gear that add life to a track. I can't scientifically explain it, but that doesn't mean it's not there. Again, don't get me wrong the digital stuff is great, but I think we need to be careful. If we don't buy it, then they won't make it. It seems like the philosophy of audio recording had changed drastically, and with it, the tools of the trade. We have the loudness wars, pitch correction, and an overuse of cut and pasting. This may seem off topic, but I really think the gear and the philosophy of recording are one in the same. We are sadly becoming an artificial society, and it's reflected in our music. At some point there was a shift from digital media being a useful tool, to it giving the impression (By advertisers mind you) that we should negate our old equipment. I think we should give it some more time and see what happens. Hold on to your gear guys!
post edited by Guitpicker - 2012/01/15 23:29:32
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Guitpicker
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/15 23:34:57
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Sorry for the word blob. I seperated the paragraphs, but it won't edit.
post edited by Guitpicker - 2012/01/15 23:37:06
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