MC6 or Sonar? Help me choose

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WhiskeyBurn
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January 05, 12 7:34 AM (permalink)

MC6 or Sonar? Help me choose

I am "fairly" new to this recording/mixing thing. I've been using a version of MC4 for a little over a year now. Not having a background in this, and with very limited time to experiment, I've hacked my way through. However, I've noticed what seems to be some limitations and am looking to upgrade today actually. I see that MC6 is out, and was planning on picking it up today at Best Buy during lunch. Here's our deal.......... We are a 5 piece Classic/Hard Rock style original band. We record mic'd amps/instruments basically as a Live band, directly to a Tascam NEO recorder. I then dump those tracks to the PC and mix in MC4, then overdub as needed. I do NOT need any "modeling" or "virtual instruments", or "drum loops", or MIDI. I'm looking for better mixing effects, especially EQ. I have found the EQs in MC4 to be rather limited. I would LOVE a multi-band EQ plug-in. I'm sure a lot of my frustration is due to my limited experience, but I've reached the point of being pretty good at initial track editing/mixing, and get to the point of, "Man, it would be nice if I could do xxxxxx". Escpecially EQ'ing. High Cut, Low Cut, Mid Boost, etc, seem to "take out" or "allow" too much of a range. I want to visually see something like a multi-band graphic equalizer, which give a real-time representation of what was playing, which I could then "pull back" or "push forward" certain Frequencies. Am I asking for too much? Anyway, I was pretty convinced that I was going to pick up MC6, but then I got to thinking that maybe one of the other Cakewalk products was better suited to our needs. Cost IS a factor. Thanks.
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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:MC6 or Sonar? Help me choose January 05, 12 8:27 AM (permalink)
    I would not suggest buying either MC6 or X1 based on what you are saying.  Both 6 and X1 really have no major add on's that are in line with what you seem to be seeking.

    You spoke mostly about EQ needs. 

    My suggestion would be to look at Ozone.

    http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/   you can download a demo at the site. Try it before you buy it. I know you will love it. 

     It is one of the things I added to MC4 as I was looking to improve the sound quality of the mix and while I have X1 and MC6 in my arsenal of DAW's I still use Ozone in every single project. I was not disappointed in it at all. I've never actually heard anyone comment that they regretted buying it. 

    Ozone has multiband EQ as one of it's modules. You can select the points and even add more points to the EQ. 
    There is also a harmonic exciter which allows you to again move the band hi/lo limits.
    There is a loudness module if being really loud is what you're looking for.
    There is a multiband compressor.... one of my favorite tools. The compression bands are totally adjustable so you can compress the hell out of the kick and leave the vocals open. 
    There is a reverb module ( which I rarely use, preferring the sound of other reverbs) 
    And there is a stereo imaging module. 

    Lots of presets will get you going quickly.

    While Ozone is not as cheap as MC6 or even the upgrade to X1.... I think it is probably more in line with what you need. Cost is $250 for Ozone... or less if you are already using O4. 
    post edited by Guitarhacker - January 05, 12 8:29 AM

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    #2
    Beagle
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    Re:MC6 or Sonar? Help me choose January 05, 12 8:37 AM (permalink)
    if you want better plugins, don't look for MC6.  MC6 is a GREAT program and alot for the money.  and it comes with some decent softsynths (MIDI), but plugins are rather sparse.  they're decent for entry level, but not for mixing a 5 piece band, IMO.

    Herb has a great suggestion with Ozone, OR Sonar X1 Producer comes with a LOT of great plugins.  actually I have and use both X1 Producer AND Ozone.  they compliment each other well for mixing multiple instruments and voices.

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:MC6 or Sonar? Help me choose January 05, 12 8:51 AM (permalink)
    The cool thing about X1 producer is that it will also accept multiple simultaneous inputs. So with the addition of an interface that also supports multiple inputs, you can record the band direct into the DAW...live. 

    Producer is about $400 then add the interface to match with multiple inputs..... 


    Ozone sounds like the better option and the next logical step for you guys if money is tight. I think you will get the biggest bang for the buck with O5.

    I'm a big, big fan of Cakewalk..... but in this case, I think the next cake acquisition is a bit further down the road for you guys at this time. 

    My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

    MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW   
    Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface


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    "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer 
    #4
    Tap
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    Re:MC6 or Sonar? Help me choose January 05, 12 9:06 AM (permalink)
    Hey WhiskeyBurn,
     I've been using MC4 as well for years now. Like you, I am finding that I wish that I had an efficient channel strip for each of my Analog inputs. I agree that, although the utilities provided with MC4 are very good especially for the investment, It would be convenient and cpu efficient to add both eq and compression to each analog channel, instead of having to add these effects as required.

    Herb is quite familiar with MC4, MC6 and X1 and I believe that he is correct in that upgrading to either MC6 or X1 will not get you a multi-band eq. Ozone, from what I understand is a great tool geared especially for mastering, but the tools are probably also good for mixing. You will pay for it. There are some alternatives, which are more specific.  I would suggest checking Steve Strummers list of Plug-ins. He did a great review of an assortment of Freebies. 

    I've been using Voxengo Span which has become the forum standard for Real-Time audio spectrum analysis. The tool is free and they also support Voxengo GlissEQ which seems to combine Span with a Dynamic Equalizer for $99.  I would suggest downloading and becoming familiar with Voxengo Span and perhaps demo'ing Gliss while checking out some of the better recommended free multiband eq's.   The idea here is to be able to compare with your ears and eyes the different products on the market which could become a great help in determining the right product for your needs.

    I know there are a number of reliable users here who would recommend the kjaerhus classic eq as being one of the best free multiband eq's. Sorry, it looks like it's no longer available?

     Also, Cakewalk has the Sonitus Effects suite which includes a nice collection of plugins.


     



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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:MC6 or Sonar? Help me choose January 05, 12 9:27 AM (permalink)
    Good points TAP. 

    There are a number of websites which offer FREE plugs of varying shapes, sizes, and colors.... I have used a number of these over the years. 

    Browse the Voxengo site.  Check out the freebies and see if they do the job. 

    I have found that while there are some free plugs out there, the better ones will cost you a bit of money. 

    On Ozone..... I have O3 & O4. I do not hesitate one bit to use them in a track. Even though Ozone is considered to be a "Mastering Suite" and it does a superb job at that, I will pop it into a track's FX bin in a heart beat.

    The cool thing with Ozone is that you have complete control over the modules. For example in a track, if all you need is the multiband EQ..... add Ozone and shut off the loudness, reverb, compression...etc and just use the modules you need. I use this feature ALL the time. 

    In addition, with Ozone.... you can change the order of the modules. If you want compression then reverb, you can drag the modules in the module view in whatever order suits your tastes and requirements. This, I have never really used. 

    Check out the free stuff....and search google too with the key words Free VST effects EQ. 

    back in the early days I did this a lot. When I built my DAW I had pared down to the essential "can't live without these" synths and FX. Now, I use a very limited but effective group of VST's and Ozone is right in the middle of that "must have"  group. 

    My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

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    "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer 
    #6
    Beagle
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    Re:MC6 or Sonar? Help me choose January 05, 12 10:47 AM (permalink)
    Herb is quite familiar with MC4, MC6 and X1 and I believe that he is correct in that upgrading to either MC6 or X1 will not get you a multi-band eq.

    no, that's not correct.  producer comes with a multiband compressor.  Here are the "mastering" tools that come with the Producer version
    http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/X1-Producer/about.aspx/Mastering-Music-in-SONAR-X1-Producer
    here are the "mixing" tools that come with producer
    http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/X1-Producer/about.aspx/Mixing-Music-in-SONAR-X1-Producer

    I use both the tools in sonar producer AND Ozone in my mixes.  for multiband, I do tend to use Ozone instead of the multiband compressor that comes with producer, but I don't want bad info passed around, and the multiband in producer IS capable and works very nice.

    http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:MC6 or Sonar? Help me choose January 05, 12 10:58 AM (permalink)
    For additional FX needs, both free and commercial, the site of Melda Productions if worth visiting. At least all the commercial Melda FX are multiband (not 100% sure about the free ones), which makes them brilliant for handling live mixes where everything is not clean per track.

    SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre  -  Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc.
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    WhiskeyBurn
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    Re:MC6 or Sonar? Help me choose January 05, 12 11:39 AM (permalink)
    Thanks guys. Question...So, can Ozone be added to MC4 as a plug-in? Sorry, I'm trying to understand all of this stuff and it's frustrating at times. Especially since I have a very extensive technical background, but at times this is like learning a new language.
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    Beagle
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    Re:MC6 or Sonar? Help me choose January 05, 12 11:53 AM (permalink)
    Yes, Ozone is delivered as a VST (and RTAS, I think, but that doesn't matter) and all VST2 plugins will work in any version of cakewalk (X1, Sonar, Home Studio, MC, etc).

    http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:MC6 or Sonar? Help me choose January 05, 12 1:27 PM (permalink)
    Yeah... 

    in post #2 above I mentioned that I added Ozone 3 &4 to MC4 which allowed me to produce much better sounding mixes. the Music Creator line is a basic line of DAW's and while it comes with a number of Cake FX including EQ and compression...... I opted to get Ozone after I ran the demo version for a few days. 

    Ozone will run in MC.

    My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

    MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW   
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    "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer 
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    Tap
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    Re:MC6 or Sonar? Help me choose January 05, 12 2:08 PM (permalink)
    I stand corrected, (Thanks Reece)  X1 producer does include the mastering tools which (BTW) are not available in either X1, studio or essentials. 

    MC4 - M-Audio FW410 / Behringer UCA202 - Fender Strat / Jazzmaster / DuoSonic / Washburn / Peavy Foundation M-Audio Radium 49 Roland Juno 106 / JazzChorus / Seymore Duncan Convertible - HP A1230N ( AMD Athalon 3800+ 2G Ram + 200G HD )

    http://soundclick.com/cut2thechaise

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