Tracking with V-Drums

I play my e-drums along with the song using the sounds produced by the e-drum module, and only record the MIDI data into Sonar.
Then I use a Drum Map set for my electronics.
Then I go through and record the drum sound that is triggered by the MIDI info onto separate tracks.
I use Drumagog to replace the lame e-drum sounds with real drum sounds but you can use what ever you like.

Mike

Blown306


I'm ready to get my V-Drums set up with X1 for recording, and I have a few questions.  As there are so many options in doing this, I'd like to find out what others are doing.  I have the TD-10 Expanded kit.
 
I'm interested in capturing the midi recording, as well as the audio output if I want to use the TD-10 as a sound module.  The midi track will give me the option to use VST drums if I want correct?
 
What is the best way to set this up to record mutiple tracks for each instrument group (kick, snare, HH, toms, cymbals)?  Should each group get a seperate midi output/channel assigned in the TD-10 and corrisponding midi tracks in Sonar?  Or is there a way to do it like the softsynths do it with one midi track and combo tracks (not sure of the correct term) for the audio portion?  I'm looking for the ability to control and mix the drum components independently like one normally would.
 
When recording...how are you doing the monitoring for no latency?  From the DAW with a softsynth sound?  From the drum module using the mix feature and local drum audio?  Midi back to the drum module, audio to the DAW with local control off?  Or local control on, audio and midi out from the module to the DAW?  I'm so confused here!
 
I messed with it for a few hours and experienced doubling and/or latency and timing issues.  Something isn't right...

I've been doing this for years and have the same module as you do, so I'll hook you up here. :)
 
In your V Drums module, local set to off....soft-thru set to off. Make sure you are set for channel 10 for midi in the drum brain. When setting up your sonar tracks, set for channel 10 here as well.
 
I don't know how you are running your module via midi, but I use a MOTU Midi Express XT for my midi stuff. I get 0 latency because I use a mixing console and all my outs in the Roland brain go into ins on my console. So I'm not using direct input monitoring using my soundcards. I have my outs in the brain set for each channel. Kick panned left in master out, snare panned right in master out. Kick to channel one in the board, snare to channel 2. The hard left/right pans are only used in the Roland brain and tell which side of the out to use. This doesn't effect the panning of the brain audio.
 
For hat, ride and crashes, I use direct out 1 and send them to channels 3 and 4 on my console. For toms, direct out 2 and they are sent to channels 5 and 6 on my console. You don't need to worry about 2 things here.
 
1. When you have all your midi data down, there is no need to record the Roland brain audio unless you really want to use it. But you don't have to do this in real time. As long as you have that midi file, you can create the audio at any point. The audio channels I set up are just for control over the instuments as a whole. I never record the V Drums audio because if I did, all of it would be on 6 tracks.
 
2. This is not needed because if you want to use all the audio and have individual tracks of audio, you create your midi and then use a Sonar CAL file called "split notes to tracks". This takes your midi track that has all the info on it and splits it up to individual tracks. From there, you can route each track of midi it creates to your Roland brain or some other softsynth and create the audio that way so you have total track control on individual tracks.
 
Next, you do not need to make a drum map. Though it can be helpful, those that do this normally do it when they do not have the instrument definition file for their midi instrument. If you don't have midi instrument defs, when you double click on a midi file, you see the piano roll with just the piano and it doesn't tell you what each instrument is. If you had the Roland TD-10 instrument definitions, clicking on piano roll will now show you instrument numbers and the names of the instruments without the need to create a midi map. I custom midi map can be helpful in certain situations, but instrument definitions give you exactly what you put in. Noe granted, if you have a whacky map going on and have a custom pad configuration, you'll need to create a midi map. But most times, the instrument defs work wonders.
 
I'll show you what I mean. If I use my TD-10 instrument defs, this is what my piano roll looks like when I double click on it.
 

 
Hd view: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/Def1.JPG
 
If I use no instrument defs and a general midi set-up of the same exact drum track, it looks like this.
 

 
Hd: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/NoDef2.JPG
 
However I set my pads up as far as what they trigger, that's what shows up on my screen. You'll see quite a few toms used there....tom 1, tom rim 1, tom 2, tom rim 2 etc. I have a pretty big kit and have like 7 toms going on. However you set up your pad assignments, that's what you'll get on the readout without having to map anything. So it's good to have the instrument defs. I believe you'll find them in the Sonar instrument defs misc file under Roland and then you'll need to implement it into your midi config in Sonar where it says "define" on the instrument defs part. Then select all the channels 1-16 and you'll be in good shape. It will look like this when you're done. When you click apply, the hi-lite you see will no longer be there.
 

 
Hd: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/Defs3.JPG
 
That should get you going. If you're not using a mixing console like me, you'll definitely need to adjust your latency so that you won't hear any delay in your sound. You should be good at 128 buffers since you're not driving a softsynth. However, if you have this set up correctly, you won't even need the sounds in the Roland brain. I just use the brain as a pad to midi interface. The sounds you get from a softsynth blow the brain sounds away...trust me. You don't even need them other than to monitor if you are not using a softsynth.
 
If you DO use a softsynth, this requires a bit more horsepower and you'll most liekyl need to drop your latency buffers down to 64 via ASIO drivers. That's how I have to set mine if I'm triggering Session Drummer 3, BFD, Superior, Steven Slate etc. Anyway...that's all I can think of for now. I hope this helps you. Best of luck!
 
-Danny

Thanks for the replies everyone...Danny, you da man, that's exactly what I was looking for!  I was starting down the path that Chuck and Mike mentioned, but I have almost the same gear as you are using...Motu Midi Express 128 and I do use a console as well.  I was eyeballing the 6 outputs of the TD-10 and figured that I would be using them in some fashion, and planned to round up a bunch of instrument cables.
 
I was just starting to do a RTFM (Read The Frickin Manual) on this stuff...since I'm basically using the default pad/sound assigments and layout of the TD-10, it looks like the def file is going to work just fine for me.
 
I still need to go down to the studio and set all of this up...as I'm trying to digest this, I'm just wondering why you distribute your TD-10 audio among the 6 outputs if you are only using that audio for monitoring?  If you are not using the audio from the module, it seems like you could just run the master outs (L/R) into 2 channels (or a stereo channel) on the board and call it a day.  Is it just for better level controls for monitoring?  I also gather you are running all of your monitoring off the console then too (including cans) correct?  That is what I am doing (except for right now, the blasted power supply on my board blew out last week).  Time to upgrade to an Allen & Heath :)  I digress...
 
Thanks much...you guys saved me hours of time and frustration...I hope I can give back as much (and more) to the community as I've gotten from it so far!  Rock on brothers...
 

Just a little update...after some time of searching for the instrument definitions and then trying to get them to show up, it all finally came together.  I was able to track a drum part and everything matched up to the def, and it worked fairly well against a Battery3 patch right out of the box.
 
One thing I did though, was to enable local control, and here is why.  I ran the 'phones output' of my Saffire to the 'Mix In' on the brain, plugged my cans directly into the brain for the audio mix/monitoring, and just sent midi out from the brain to the DAW via the Motu.  The timing seems good (my ASIO buffer is 64) and allowed me to easily capture the midi data, while tracking through the cans.  Just to make sure I didn't have any doubling going on, I changed the midi out on that track to an unused port.  I need to try to set the channels midi out to the correct port, disable local control and test to see if there are any delay problems monitoring off the brain.  I think that is the 'more correct' way to do it based on the diagram in the TD-10 manual, but I thought the way I first did it was more fail-proof, as I was just dealing with midi out from the brain to the DAW, and not needing to worry about round-trip midi signals from the DAW triggering the brain sounds.  I'm going to test this today.
 
I did notice that I may need to mess with the sensitivities on the pads...little ghost rolls on the snare sounded like a machine gun, but sounded great out of the brain box.  This was one of my original thoughts of why to use the sounds off the brain...it seems like the positional sensing and dynamics would be much better than midi data to a vst.  However, I'm not ruling out my near total lack of experience tracking drums this way either lol
 
Thanks for your help guys...I know I'll get through this eventually :)

Perfect examples Danny...thanks so much! I need to get into the 21st century with better drum plugins. I'm relieved to find out that it's a limitation of the plugin, I was pretty disappointed with the results, considering the old TD-10 played smooth as silk, but the vst performed pretty poorly. Time to go shopping :)

Great job Danny,
Of the drum samplers listed above, which one is your favorite? I too have v-drums in my home studio and want to utilize them with x2.
I'm having trouble getting my hi hat to respond the way it should. It's either fully open or fully closed in my midi recordings. Is it my session drummer or am I missing something?

Mike, I did a few tests on all my drum modules. Unfortunately, only Session Drummer 3 fails on the hat thing. You get open or you get closed. The Steven Slate Bonham wet 1 kit sort of gives you the effect that the hats are sometimes half open due to the room verb, but they too are open/close.
 
All my other drum modules opened and closed in increments even with my older Roland hat pads (pd-7 on my little practice kit at the house) and my FD-7 pedal. Dinosaur stuff there but it works perfectly on everything else. I have my PD-7 pad on the hats to give me center and rim hits...so the center of the pad is like the center of a real hat giving you that tighter bell sound, and the edge of the hat gives you that smash sound. When you use this with SD3, the hits get a little weird with the rim/center giving off two different sounds and sometimes they even cancel each other out. So you're best bet is to put the pad into single trigger mode if you have a dual trigger pad.
 
SD3 is a really nice entry level drum synth for those on a tight budget. However, it falls way short of the "made for drums" programs out there. So if you're more of a pro drummer, you may want to buy a drum synth made for drums. Not that SD3 isn't, it just doesn't stand up to the big boys on the block like BFD 2, Superior or Steven Slate. The reason for that is due to how the big boy drum kits use multi-samples as well as how they handle midi from triggers. You get so many different hits per drum, you NEVER get that robot effect. They are so much like real drums, I actually like them as much as real drums.
 
Anyway, sorry I don't have better news for you. SD3 is really good though with a little tweaking if you mess with velocities after you record them and watch for robotic hits. You're out of luck with the hats but you should still be able to get some good results with SD3. Good luck. :)
 
-Danny

Not a problem Mike. Glad to have helped you.....good luck with everything.
 
-Danny