spindlebox
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Phase Problems
OK, the dreaded P word! I recorded a band here the other day and I really want to keep this take. First of all I should say, that the guy really wanted an ambient mic in the room with his mic'd guitar (I used a Senn e906) and for the room mic I used a RODE NT1A. I thought the guitar sounded like crap anyway because he was using this Rotary effect among other things on it, and it was a fender tube amp. So anyway, just before recording, I listened to everything and didn't notice. Again, the guitar sounded bad to begin with! So now, I have it sounding pretty good in the mix - as good as a bad guitar can sound - (with creative EQ and compression) and now I go to check it in MONO and it disappears entirely. I guess this is what is known as a Phase issue? I haven't detected anything like that. I hear that the bottom can drop out of tracks entirely like in overheads,snares etc., but I never have problems with this. So how do I fix it? I have tried reversing the phase on the track itself (you know the little button), and it sounds a bit different but still disappears in MONO. In looking at the WAVEform, the two tracks seem to perfectly line up. It's odd. Anyway, I don't have a lot of experience with this, and barring re-recording all 12 tracks I would like to see if I can fix this first. I have heard there are some plugs that can fix this. Thanks in advance!!
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Phase Problems
2012/02/15 08:36:41
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1) first thing is the bad news... you want to check for mono collapse earlier, because now as you fix it you are going to mess up the way you had it and that is going to be disappointing.
2) try sliding or nudging the room mic track earlier in the timeline. Zoom in ALL THE WAY, not sorta almost all the way, but actually all the way in. Now nudge the tracks so they line up as good as possible. If that doesn't make it better than try pulling the clip back wards... you'll end up with an effected phase FX sound but you may find that it has more "meat" because less stuff disappears.
A few companies, Voxengo for example have VSTs that let you gently slide the track timing while listening to playback phasing issues. This would be ideal for your circumstance.
Good luck.
best regards,
mike
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spindlebox
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Re:Phase Problems
2012/02/15 08:45:24
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Hey Mike, LOL, well, I'm disappointed already, so redoing what I had won't be a problem - especially if I just duplicate everything and work with an independent set. I will do what you try about sliding the timeline. What Voxengo VST's are you talking about? I may give them a try! You know the funny thing about this, is, he would probably like the sound! But I doubt he will like when the guitar disappears when the listen on a laptop or something! Thanks, Scott
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Phase Problems
2012/02/15 08:54:23
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http://www.voxengo.com/product/pha979/ It's made just for working with multiple mic setups. I've never used it because I have found that nudging works well. But it is a very cool item and it does seem like listening while adjusting is super cool. I'm assuming that the basis of your problem is the way the two mics are interacting. There may be further problems caused by a complicated mixing patch, which is what I think your were saying you ended up with, so you'll want to be ready to back off the patch you have now and sort of rebuild it with a solid time locked foundation. Go for it... at the other side of this project you'll own a new bag of skill!!! And, you may also learn to never let a guitarist like that back in your room too! :-) best regards, mike
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spindlebox
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Re:Phase Problems
2012/02/15 09:50:14
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LOL! Thanks Mike! Although, when said guitarist is packing $800 tax-free clams, he is more than welcome to come back any time!! I will post my results on here. Maybe someone can learn from my tomfoolery!
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skullsession
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Re:Phase Problems
2012/02/15 11:29:06
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I would think that if the guitar is disappearing completly in MONO you could just flip polarity on one of the tracks and get rid of the problem. Of course, it would probably change your mix....which you'd have to look at again.
If the room mic is far enough away, I generally don't find phasing issues. And to be honest, if your room isn't large and killer sounding, adding the distant mic is often a bad scenario.
If your room is small, next time, try moving the mic to the spot furthest away and point it at the opposite wall. Of course, you'll want to flip phase before recording to see which way feels best. And, btw, I'd be tempted to use the 906 close on the cab and the Rode in the room.....exactly opposite what you did. I find that the off axis sound of the 906 is pretty funky...sounds best right on a sound source. Just my opinion.
Don't you just love when the client demands you do something, but lacks the ears to realize it sucks while they're tracking?
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Phase Problems
2012/02/15 11:54:26
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So.... in my typical fashion..... here's my uneducated/simpleton answer. Hopefully the two mics are on two different tracks. ( in the OP you did say the two tracks seemed to line up perfectly) I'd simply mute one of them.( the room mic)....... and just go with the main cabinet mic track. add reverb to taste and the guy will not know the difference in the mix down. Heck... he might actually think you're brilliant and book another session. If not on two separate tracks...... big mistake....... you should have used 2 tracks. Any time you use two mics on one instrument, you should always approach that situation knowing that phase issues might screw you up in the mix..... from cancellation to comb filtering and more...... so keeping them on separate tracks is of the utmost importance.
post edited by Guitarhacker - 2012/02/15 11:57:43
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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spindlebox
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Re:Phase Problems
2012/02/15 12:21:49
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Thanks everyone, Skully, actually, I DID use the 906 on the cab and the Rode in the room (you prob misread); the reverse would have been weird. Guitarhacker. Of course I used two separate tracks for each. But what's equally weird, is that I took the 906 (cabinet track), muted the room track, duplicated the cabinet track and ran it hard left and right. The guitar still (mostly) disappears in the mix in MONO. It should also be noted that I recorded each track in MONO. I always do, unless it's a PIANO/synth track or something. Am I high? What could be causing this?
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skullsession
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Re:Phase Problems
2012/02/15 13:21:15
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Oh...you're right. I misread that.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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skullsession
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Re:Phase Problems
2012/02/15 13:35:26
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Spindle....you're really confusing me here.
If, indeed, what you did was duplicate the cab track and run one left, one right....one of them HAS TO BE opposite polarity, or they wouldn't cancel in mono.
And I have to ask...why double it and run one left, one right? By doing that, you're effectively creating a mono track....but by doubling it/splitting it, you're begging for phase problems.
If you're using the single cab track, just run it straight up the center.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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