Man, this FEELS like a stupid question!

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Too Gene
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2012/02/24 09:26:17 (permalink)

Man, this FEELS like a stupid question!

Guys....all I wanna do is get a straight 4/4 using SI Drums. I mean, ultimately I'd like to add stops, extra crashes and fills but right now I'd take a straight beat! I've watched all the videos, read all the blogs and feel I'm just doing something wrong.
I've got MC6 loaded up on a laptop running Vista with a stock soundcard. I can create a song using the loops, just cant get a straight beat. When I try to use one of the beats from the "Song Blocks Parts" I can't make these beats use SI Drums. 
The patterns I drag from SI Drums (12 Bar Blues) sound random and not at all like a beat I could play along with.
I am so very ignorant about this style recording...I bought MC6 to learn how but I'm on the verge of having a weenie roast with this thing!
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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Man, this FEELS like a stupid question! 2012/02/24 09:34:57 (permalink)
    Welcome Gene.

    The stock sound card is the likely culprit. Trying to get a stock sound card to play midi is a hit and miss thing with the factory cards due to a whole number of factors. None of them good. 

    Some folks can get ASIO4ALL to work ok but the ultimate, final solution is to use a USB external (after market) dedicated musical interface. 

    If the audio loops play OK but midi is all weirded out, yup..... 

    Once you get a work around to the factory card or choose an interface like most of us here use, life with MC6 will be lovely. 


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    #2
    Too Gene
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    Re:Man, this FEELS like a stupid question! 2012/02/24 10:12:04 (permalink)
    Thanks for the quick reply Hacker. 
    You think the sound card could be it? Even though the drums sound and play perfectly in the SI Drums window? I'm certainly in no position to argue, I'm just not sure if I'm explaining everything. I can hear everything perfectly.
    I am doing the following...1. Creating New Proect 2. Selecting "Normal" from the New Project File. (I've tried em all) 3. Loading SI Drums 4.Selecting 12Bar3 from the Jazz&Blues kit. 5. Click on the Media button 6. Select MIDI Groove clips 7.Select "Groove Monkey" 8. Select "Blues"....this is where it all goes to pot. If I click on any one of the many options the beat sounds like it's being played by a ****ed native. It's not broken. It's just not really in time. There's lots of random cymbal crashes and a floor tom here and a snare roll there. 
    #3
    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Man, this FEELS like a stupid question! 2012/02/24 10:52:24 (permalink)
    You're saying you can hear the drums but they do not have a steady meter to them. 

    This can be caused by the sound card not being able to process the midi data in a timely manner. It can also be caused by the sound card not having the same sampling rate as the DAW is set to. 

    We get this issue here quite often and the usual cause is the card. Factory cards are not designed to handle the massive data and real time processing required to get everything back to the speakers in less than 8 milliseconds. As the data builds up, it gets dropped and you hear stuff out of time, and things that shouldn't be where they are. 

    An interface like I described  in post 2 is the best solution if you plan to do this sort of recording as a hobby. 

    Research the interfaces available on Beagle's website....   www.beaglesound.com and get something that will work properly that fits your needs and budget. He set it up to help folks sort through the many options and get something that actually will work like you expect it to. 

    Like I said, we all have interfaces that are designed to do music right. It makes the process enjoyable and seamless. 

    Some others will pop in and offer some help.... You may be able to get some settings tweeked on teh factory card to get you by until you can get an interface.

    One thing I would try.... after you get the drums kinda like you want..... freeze the track. This renders the midi into audio and the computer and card can handle audio better since there is no massive conversion needed. 

    My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

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    #4
    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:Man, this FEELS like a stupid question! 2012/02/24 10:52:57 (permalink)
    +1
    Most likely the soundcard. The integrated chips don't have drivers that make fluent low latency DAW work possible. Sometimes you do with them tolerably, if the tasks are simple.

    But one thing...I'm not 100% sure about your workflow description:
    Did you try the clips in normal mode - not groove clipped? Groove Clip/Sonar has got nothing to do with Groove Monkey clips/the beat seller. When you Groove Clip a clip, it's timing gets changed, sometimes very wildly. I haven't spent time with them, so I can't give details. Someone else knows better.

    SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre  -  Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc.
    The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
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    Too Gene
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    Re:Man, this FEELS like a stupid question! 2012/02/24 11:16:36 (permalink)
    Thanx Hacker. I'll check out Beagle's website. Was in the market for a new computer anyways. Might as well go big. 

    @Kalle...Groove Clips just had lots of options. Evrything sounds out of time and random. Except for "Song Blocks Parts". That sounds fine....straight...in time. Just can't get the SI Drums kit to play those parts. It seems I'm stuck with the kit that was used to make that particular "Song Block" usually has a 808 kick....not really used on the blues scene. I'll try the sound card. Probably need to get one anyways.
    #6
    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Man, this FEELS like a stupid question! 2012/02/24 11:57:17 (permalink)
    Please do not make the mistake of thinking the sound card in a new computer will solve this. It will not. We have had a few come here, after buying a new computer, and buying an updated sound card from the computer company..... only to find out the card they were told was an upgrade was still not sufficient for recording. 

    Gamer update cards are still junk to us. 

    On the other hand..... new computers are always fun to have.

    I would make a suggestion.... if you can afford to do this, and if you are serious about recording.  When you get the new computer, keep it off the internet. 

    My studio DAW is totally off line. No AV, no FW,  and no annoying updates that change my configurations.   Just saying.... 

    My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

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    "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer 
    #7
    Too Gene
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    Re:Man, this FEELS like a stupid question! 2012/02/24 12:48:05 (permalink)
    Good advice. Thanx man!
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    Beagle
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    Re:Man, this FEELS like a stupid question! 2012/02/24 12:52:18 (permalink)
    for recommendations on soundcards, see my website.

    FWIW, I think it's more of a pain not to have my recording computer on the internet because of updates to the softwares, registrations, etc.  but too each his own.

    http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Man, this FEELS like a stupid question! 2012/02/24 13:48:08 (permalink)
    All I need to do when I need an update or registration is to connect the Cat5 cable to the NIC and let it go online when absolutely necessary. 

    All told though.... I don't do updates. I have the auto updates turned off so it doesn't bug me. I have also used a USB stick with relative easy to authorize some things. 


    My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

    MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW   
    Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface


    BMI/NSAI

    "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer 
    #10
    Beagle
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    Re:Man, this FEELS like a stupid question! 2012/02/24 19:02:28 (permalink)
    completely up to you.  I use one computer for everything.  I have never had a problem doing that.

    http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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    Too Gene
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    Re:Man, this FEELS like a stupid question! 2012/02/25 09:32:33 (permalink)
    Hey guys...Beagle I checked your website...very informative. I do have another stupid question...at the top of your "Sound Card" page you explained that a sound card=audio interface...Yeah? So I was looking at a Focusrite Saffire Pro14. Is that an "External Sound Card"? 
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    57Gregy
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    Re:Man, this FEELS like a stupid question! 2012/02/25 11:04:50 (permalink)
    I'm not Beagle, but yes it is, but it connects with a FireWire cable, so if your computer doesn't have a FireWire port, you'll need to install a FireWire card.
    It may also be overkill, since MC can only record 2 inputs at a time and that Focusrite has 8 outputs to the DAW. If you think you may someday upgrade to a program that can record more than 2 inputs at a time, then it could be a good choice. I like my Focusrite Saffire.

    Greg 
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    #13
    Beagle
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    Re:Man, this FEELS like a stupid question! 2012/02/25 11:37:32 (permalink)
    yep.  most newbies get confused when sales drones at Sam Ashe or GC tell them they need an "audio interface" and not a "soundcard" because the sales drones usually relate the motherboard onboard chip to "soundcard" and say you need an "audio interface" instead.  hogwash - they mean the same thing, they just have different features and functions available.  they're all "soundcards"

    the saffire Pro 14 should be a good system, but as greg warns, make sure you have Firewire and I will further warn that you might need a TI chipset for the firewire.  if you already have firewire on your motherboard, it might work OK regardless of the type, but if you have to buy a PCI/Firewire card, make sure it's a TI chipset just in case it has problems and you wont' have to take it back to exchange it for a TI one.

    http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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    RobertB
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    Re:Man, this FEELS like a stupid question! 2012/02/25 12:17:15 (permalink)

    Gene,
    I have followed your setup procedure, and you're right, it sounds awful.
    I'm using a Vista laptop with the stock sound card as well.
    The main culprit seems to be the Media Browser player. 
    If I play the selected MIDI loop in the browser, it is as you describe.
    However, if I double click the clip to drop it into the SI MIDI track, and hit the Stop button in the browser, it plays fine.
    Also, depending on just exactly what you have clicked, you may have up to three different MIDI sources feeding SI Drums:
    1.The selection from within SI Drums
    2.The clip in your MIDI track
    3.The selection in the browser
    Above all, turn off the browser player. Hit the Stop button.
    Make sure the Play button is not engaged in SI Drums.
    The only thing driving SI Drums should be your MIDI Source Track. This will give you a nice clean beat.
    There are no audio clips associated with SI Drums. It is entirely MIDI driven.
    You have a lot going on with the setup procedure you are using.
    Try stopping at step #4.
    Hit [W](rewind) to bring the now time to the start of your project.
    Drag 12Bar3 into your MIDI track.
    Hit the Stop button in the SI Drums GUI.
    Hit your spacebar. The track should make one pass through the 12 bar pattern.
    If the drums continue to play, you still have something turned on.
    I'm going to stop here.
    Try that, and let us know how it goes.


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    Too Gene
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    Re:Man, this FEELS like a stupid question! 2012/02/26 21:20:56 (permalink)
    Thanks for taking the time to check that out Robert! 
    Ok...I'm sure I have the kit in the SI Drums window stopped. When I play them in the SI Drum window they sound great....and when I drag the beat (12Bar3) over to the track I can hear enough of the beat to know that it's playing correctly in the loop...the "markers"in the track look steady. I'm just missing a kick here and a few hats there. 
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    RobertB
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    Re:Man, this FEELS like a stupid question! 2012/02/26 22:16:05 (permalink)
    Ok, that's progress. Good deal.
    Now we are getting into the area the other guys are talking about.
    Try the WASAPI driver mode. It's theoretically as good as ASIO, but implementation is somewhat freeform, and it may not perform to its potential.
    You might also want to try increasing your Playback prepare buffer. If this is too small, you can get dropped notes or complete dropouts.
    You might also try downloading ASIO4All. It's free, and can help the stock sound card immensely.
    It is kind of a band-aid though, and ultimately, a proper sound card as suggested above will really get you going.
    post edited by RobertB - 2012/02/26 22:20:11

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    Shimozu-Kushiari or Bob
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