Well Jeff, dcbs is 'supposed to be' dbs ... hahahaha!   My grammar can be atrocious ... especially since I'm a podiatrist.  I'll fix that in future posts.

Everything I referred to is peak and not RMS (as I indicated in the 1st couple of examples).

I thought the Op was looking for recommendations on how mixers refrain from going above -6 dbs on most tracks, "exceptions", etc. ... with their recorded tracks by using envelopes. 

Or he could have meant 'live' recording's or such ... which is done outside of Sonar.  If thats the case my thread is pointless.

Of course I agree with your thoughts that the peak numbers are dependent on many variables ... and may even be as neurotic as the music itself. 

But, Bat got me thinking about drums being dominant.  So I thought it dutiful to validate his generous peaks for drums.

I think you might agree that one of the greatest challenges is getting the right levels for kick and bass ... on say, a rock mix.

It might be good idea to talk about levels on busses. So far I have been talking about tracking using the K System. If you choose a ref level of K-14 then your tracks should all have signals recorded on them that are averaging an rms value around -14 db FS and the peaks just end up where they end up.  (with K-14 there is only 14 db of headroom but usually enough for most signal transients)

All I do regarding busses is do the same thing there. If I send a bunch of tracks to a buss then obviously if the tracks were all around unity then the combined effect of them would overload a buss bigtime. But by pulling individual tracks down accordingly then all you have to aim for is a total of K -14 on a buss. Same thing applies there. Average combined rms value will be around -14 and the peaks will still just take care of themselves. Rarely will anything clip a buss.

For the master buss I am just adjusting the busses so the combined total signal on the masterbuss is also K-14. Average rms value of the whole mix is still around K-14 and peaks will still take care of themselves and will rarely clip. Keep the volume up a bit in the room so the mix sounds powerful and big.

How do you do all these measurements? With VU meters of course.  And the good news is that the Klanghelm VST meters do a great job. (Cost under $10, you get a mono and stereo meter for tracks and busses) Just set the ref level and away you go. The meter will show FSD or 0db VU when your ref level is reached rms wise that is.

Big punchy drum sounds with lots of attack and punch are very possible on the drum buss for example. You can do all this at K-20 if you are worried about very transient signals clipping anywhere. It just means you have got further to master it up level wise to get it up to commercial final levels.

The problem I think many have is trying too hard to create a loud and powerful mix right from the start and that is where clipping starts to make itself apparent etc. People are trying too hard to get right up near 0db FS during tracking because they think it is best up there. Not so. They start overdriving busses and the final masterbuss. All this dumb talk about what happens in Sonar and other DAW's when you go over 0db FS. But you don't have to come anywhere near it!

You don't do that at all. You just create this lovely K -14 master which is not overloud of course but punchy with no clipping in sight. Then you master in a separate session and a week later as well. That is the time to start using EQ, compresssion and limiting to get those average levels well up into commercial territory. Of course I would love it to just stop there. You should hear how fantastic  a K-14 or even a K-20 master sounds turned right up loud.

But for the moment the client wont accept it like that. But I believe with some careful compression and use of a great limiter such as the PSP Xenon you CAN achieve very loud masters that are still punchy and kickass.

Thanks Beagle you are correct, now that is me being slack. At least it is better than dcbs!

You don't have any choice but keep your master bus under 0dBFS, since (as Nigel Tufnel would say), there's none more higher than that :-)

So, all my tracks including my master bus has to be under 0 db.

@drod. I never knew that. I see my master bus going into the red zone and it says it peaks at 3. I was just wondering at that.

Having just learnt about all of this I have mixed a song starting with the bass drum at -18db avg. by the time i finished, my avg master fader peaked at -10db. Is that ok or should i go a bit louder?
bibs

I did some mastering for a producer who was putting one of the songs on a radio release album with artists from different labels. We were the small fish in a pond of big names. The producer asked me to leave the level about where it was. I told him that I thought it would be to soft to compete, and would dork-out the programming directors, but he re-asserted that he wanted it about where it was (it was compressed to where compressing it more would have brought in a little of that "stuffy" sound - but it sounded pretty clear and natural, and was by no means "soft"). But when the disk with his artist's song and the other artists on it came back, he was not happy. No subsequent mastering session went by without him asking "Yes but, are you sure it's loud enough?" What do I do with that experience? I'm not always calling the shots, but I usually know what they want... isn't the customer always right? And even if you give them different masters, louder for the radio release and softer for the album, the same thing happens on a 5-cd changer or mp3 player set to random. At that point, it's almost doing a favor for the listener, to have your mastering about even with the other music in the same genre... I'd love to hear levels go down and dynamics come back, but it's a hard call. It seems like the end-user is going to have to learn about the unpleasant aspects of over-compression and want more dynamics before we get anywhere with this topic. The loudness bullies are sure to set the genre level unless the listener feels like a piece of music is over-compressed and rejects it because they can hear it and don't like it. If we can get that, we have a chance.

Jeff Evans



These VU meters are very good and the closest thing that I have tested for a while in the VST VU meter area:

http://www.klanghelm.com/

(If those compressors that are advertised on that site are as good as their VU meters they will be fantastic!) The BlueCat meter also works well too.

All you have to do is select a particular K System ref level and work to it. Use the VU's on tracks and busses, tell them what the ref level is, simple as that. A VU meter showing you the rms level on a track or buss makes it easy to set the correct recording levels in your system and you won't clip it very often either. You still keep a watchful eye on your peak meters as well to ensure that very transient or short fast sounds that won't move the VU much will still not clip your system.

I had to fine tune the settings on the Klang meters before I got them moving in perfect harmony with my expensive hardware API meters. If anyone gets these and wants these settings I am happy to publish the settings in a post or PM then to you.

Hey Jeff,
 
I will be buying the Klanghelm VST within the next few days, would it be possible for you to display your settings either by post or PM?
 
Regards
 
Daniel