Kalle Rantaaho
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Experts, kindly interpret this to me :o/
Jeroen Breebaarts extremely modestly priced VSTs (once free?) have received quite positive feedback here on the forum in their time, IIRC. This one, EBULoudness, is tickling my curiosity, but honestly, I really don't understand the description of its features. K-Metering is somewhat familiar to me, but does this mean the "same K-metering", and what about the rest of the jargon? http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-ebuloudness/
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SCorey
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Re:Experts, kindly interpret this to me :o/
2012/03/09 10:52:30
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This isn't a Bob Katz K-Meter. The "K-Weighting" in the EBU loudness spec is something different and better than what Katz came up with. But to be fair, Katz did say that he wanted some sort of perceptual weighting in his system. He just never pursued it.
But the EBU Loudness meter correlates fairly well with Katz' K-Metering system. So if you put the EBULoudness meter on your master buss, and mix so that its Integrated Loudness shows -14, then you're in K-14 territory. Likewise, -20 on the EBU meter is in K-20 territory. (And as an aside, the TB EBU meter is a CPU hog.)
Have you read the EBU articles that are linked to on the ToneBoosters site? Do you have any other specific jargon questions?
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bitflipper
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Re:Experts, kindly interpret this to me :o/
2012/03/09 11:05:07
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Kalle, I tried that meter plugin. While it's fun to watch, it will eat your CPU for breakfast. Unless you specifically need it in order to comply with EBU standards, I'd stick with SPAN.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Experts, kindly interpret this to me :o/
2012/03/09 15:15:26
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Thanks for the comments. What specifically arouse my curiosity was the possible possibility :o/ to match the loudness of different songs in a more consistant and accurate way than what I've been able/capable to do this far. Also, my better half is a radio journalist, and she sometimes brings work home, and I thought it could be simply interesting to play with this toy. The price sure isn't an obstacle. . I'm a keen SPAN fan, anyway.
post edited by Kalle Rantaaho - 2012/03/09 15:17:21
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bitflipper
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Re:Experts, kindly interpret this to me :o/
2012/03/09 16:59:06
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That was exactly what drew me to the plugin, too. And it might actually be useful for that, except that some projects began to stutter when I dropped it in, due to the heavy CPU load. I have two tools that are useful for matching loudness between songs in an album. One, of course, is SPAN. I put it into Mastering mode and select K-12 metering. I set my limiter to where the meters mostly hover around or slightly below the 0db mark on verses and jumps up to between +3 and +6 on the loudest passages. This will get me pretty close. The other tool is the TT Dynamic Range tool, specifically the offline version. This will analyze an entire folder and give you a report (in a text file) showing the DR value for each song. This is a coarser guide than SPAN, as it only looks at the dynamic range of the loudest parts of each song and ignores quiet bits, fade-ins and fade-outs. Very dynamic material confuses it. But you can quickly see in a glance which songs are most likely to need boosting or dampening to fit well with the others.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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dmbaer
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Re:Experts, kindly interpret this to me :o/
2012/03/10 16:22:04
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bitflipper I have two tools that are useful for matching loudness between songs in an album. Don't you have two other tools as well? You know, the ones on either side of your head? Serious question, though. I just picked up T-Racks in the ongoing group buy. The metering suite contains what IK claims to be a "perceived loudness" meter. Anyone have thoughts on whether this thing is something worth paying attention to?
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Fog
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Re:Experts, kindly interpret this to me :o/
2012/03/10 19:38:52
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it all is of important, depending on what your doing I guess, how useful it is to you.he much like you watch TV in the UK (maybe they do the same in the US).. the tv show is FAR quieter than the adverts.. BUT the adverts seem louder , but in fact they aren't different volume wise if you run the side by side .. but the perceived loudness is to get your attention. in a lot of clubs they will have limitors to trip off the speakers to stop damage, but again thats were perceived loudness comes in, esp with dance music of various sorts. the tv station has it's own limiting / compression no doubt.. but that tries to get around it.
post edited by Fog - 2012/03/10 19:56:47
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bitflipper
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Re:Experts, kindly interpret this to me :o/
2012/03/10 20:25:56
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I don't use T-Racks so I can't comment on those meters. But I will say that I am generally dubious of "perceived loudness" metering, because they usually don't tell you what that actually means. Is it based on RMS values, and if so how wide are the RMS windows? Is it based on a weighted curve, and if so what kind of curve? And what exactly do they mean by "perceived loudness" anyway? How do they avoid skewing the results when there are loud transients in an otherwise quiet mix? What it ultimately comes down to is being able to correlate what the meters are telling you to real-life experience. I stopped using the VST version of the TT Dynamic Range meter because I could not reliably correlate what it was showing me to what I heard. I found that I got more consistent results by visually interpreting SPAN's meters rather than relying on an automated "perceived loudness" interpretation. Of course, I'm thinking in terms of CDs and MP3s, not broadcasting. That's a whole 'nother arena, with different technical needs. The EBU standard is very specific about how loudness is calculated. I'm just not convinced of its applicability in the recording and mastering world.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Fog
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Re:Experts, kindly interpret this to me :o/
2012/03/10 23:09:55
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well Bit, the have a "cap" on volume levels on UK tv, maybe the same there.. but advertisers use it to get your attention.. I'm sure other UK folk have noticed the increase on commercial stations where it does seem to go up slightly.. I'm about 80% sure Dan who does the Fab filter videos has mentioned it in their mastering tutorials and the combo of 2 separate channels combined volume around the same freq and well volume between the samples http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne7OfBVeZIc 56 seconds in it's much like the loudness wars to me and people trying any and every way to get around celings/limits/standards set. and 6 minutes in , talks about the "K" scale http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne7OfBVeZI
post edited by Fog - 2012/03/10 23:31:08
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drewfx1
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Re:Experts, kindly interpret this to me :o/
2012/03/15 21:25:10
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Some interesting technical information on loudness (related to broadcasting) here: http://www.orban.com/meter/Technology.html (Note that the free Orban meter is not VST.) One of my many projects for myself (that I may never get around to) is to play around with building some meters I like in Reaktor....
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Guitarpima
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Re:Experts, kindly interpret this to me :o/
2012/03/15 23:25:57
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It looks like a mastering tool so it would not be used for mixing. From what I understand it shows you percieved loudness which is very useful for making sure your mastered mixes are going to be loud enough. It may be confusing but you use a brickwall limiter to make sure nothing goes over 0.0db otherwise your track will clip and sound icky. You use the gain on the BWL to bring up the percieved loudness to a level to compare with CDs today. It's not that simple though. There are lots of things you could do to bring up the loudness. There's a mastering video at Groove 3 that explains this using the T-racks mastering suite. It uses the T-racks software but the techniques are the same. HTH
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