Recording time versus mixing time

Recently I finished a project for a man that consisted of three short jingles.  We spent about an hour on set up and recording.  Then I spent three hours editing, mixing and mastering and burned his cd.  My plan was to have him review it and get back with me on any changes that he wanted.

When I called him to tell him his review cd was done, he asked me how much the cost was so far.  When I told him he got really upset and hung up on me.  In fact, I think that I am going to get stiffed.  He hasn't gotten back with me yet.

I am curious.  What is a typical ratio of recording time versus editing, mixing, mastering, etc?

I think that I am going to start telling people up front that for every hour that we spend recording, I will spend at least three times that much getting a review cd ready.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks,

Tom

We now live in a world where even people who make music think it has no value and aren't even willing to pay for their own. The 'democritization of music' is basically creating a massive race to the bottom, where everyone thinks that it should all be free, even the making of it.

"In fact, I think that I am going to get stiffed." And not in a way that you enjoy either...

From my own experience usually it's safe to say a one 12 hour session to record, mix a BAND (demo, how many songs? depends on how proficient and prepared the band is) and if running a few hours over-time then usually toss that in for free - clients like to think they are getting a good deal (free-time). But charging them a high hourly rate for a "full 12 hour session" without any free-time (discount) and no decent coffee or snacks might diss them off so badly it could fracture the space time continuum and cause a massive paradox throughout the universe and.. and.. oh boy!

A leaning experience. 

Always get at least a small deposit just to cover some of your time. And they become more invested. Consider it the same ammount of investment you made into their project. Their money and your time. Tell them your fee is discounted for them, but if not paid in a timely manner the discount is rescinded . Upon your discretion. 
So the next time you get stiffed you got some small compensation. Put this in writing. Nothing fancy call it and "engagement letter" have them sign and pay deposit before any work is started.

When and if he calls back, tell him since he hung up on you rudely and didn't pay in a timely manner he lost his discounted price.

Hahaha Jeff, I'm actually one that does it the way you said should make me go broke. I hate watching a clock and having people pay for that. I know how long something will take me just about always and if I have a problem, I eat the extra time...but that's rare. I know a mix will take me 4-6 hours. A big one 6-8 hours...sometimes more. I know a recording session including set-up will usually take a certain amount of time if they don't use my in house gear. I take all that into consideration and come up with a price. While working in that realm, if something starts to get a bit crazy, I tell the client "this will be more expensive if we go this route because it wasn't in our plans". That said, as long as something doesn't become too time consuming or a job inside of a job, I have no problems giving a little something extra. I think that's what separates me from a lot of others. I've also been one to refund money or discount when things went faster or smoother than I had anticipated. Sure, time is money but being human is also extremely important.

When I master something, I know the editing session can be anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour. I know the initial song will take about an hour give or take to create a mastering template from. From there each song will take less and less time and will end up at about 20 minutes give or take for each additional song. I know the album suite creation will take me about an hour to an hour and a half to put everything in place, gap it, code it and do a test burn. I pretty much know how everything is most likely going to work in my business, so I have no problems quoting a price ahead of time. I prepare for the worst, but have no problems discounting as I've mentioned.

For example, I had a client come to me for a DDP. It was mastered somewhere else. How much can I charge to bring the entire album in and press a button to create the DDP? LOL! How much do you think someone else would charge for that simple process? Some are charging quite a lot to where it doesn't have to be that way. The cooler you are and more human, the more business you get. Some of my prices are a little high...but that's because I always offer something within those prices that you won't get using other places...and they are, professional work in a more than timely fashion that is treated like my own, love, understanding, passion, my opinions, ability to solve just about any problem and of course making someone feel like they matter and are the only client I have.

In this economy, any client is a gift to any of us....and I prefer to refer to them as friends that have trusted in me. So in some cases I may be a little high, but when you get something from me, it's done right and we always know what we're up against price wise before we even go into it. That's another good thing about having a meeting with someone either in person or over the phone. You get a feel for what it may be like working with them. This also dictates what a price quote may be. Always interview them beforehand.

To each their own though....if running a clock for prices works for people, there's nothing wrong with it. I know I always hated it when I was in that position which is why I removed it from my business. It still exists to an extent, but it's not something we watch unless something is just starting to take too long. Again, that's rare for me but it has happened. You just take the good with the not so good. :)

To the OP: If you've done several recordings of your own stuff, you sort of know how long some of this stuff will take. Keep in mind that most times when we do our own stuff, we know what we're looking for and we also sometimes settle for less because we can work on our stuff at a later time. You don't have that same luxury with someone that is paying you for your services. Quite a few engineers do not include editing time into their business plan. I think it is essential and needs to be there because editing alone (depending on what you have to do) can take more time than the recording and the mix combined if you're not careful. So whatever price you come up with per hour for recording, you add a little something in for your editing sessions.

You have to keep in mind that most of the good studio's are charging about $60 to $100+ per hour. The GREAT studio's are way more. Are you worth $60 per hour? If not, you drop the price and add a few bucks for editing/mixing/little m mastering etc. Come up with package deals. They are way more appealing to people. Keep your prices fair. If you aren't an engineer that is worth $60 an hour, don't try to be one. Knock your prices down, learn the system, pay your dues and have clients coming in instead of being so high it turns them away. 

10 clients at $40 per hour makes you more money and gains your more exposure than 1-3 at $60 per hour. We live in a world where someone can run to Staples and buy a recording program and do it on their own. Or jump on the net and grab Reaper or something. It truly is a gift to have someone offer to record with us. Price accordingly, make it worth your while, stay human and don't rake anyone over the coals. Think of the package deal I meantioned. Ever go to one of those online music stores and see how they put together a little recording rig for a set price that has a little of everything in it?

That doesn't appeal to experienced users, but for the normal folks that don't know what we know, it's an awesome deal. The same thing in your business. Make things appealing...give them loads of options...practice on your own stuff and think of the possible issues you may come up with so that when they happen in your business with a paying customer, you know how to deal with it. Make them feel you are worth what you ask and that they don't have to worry about anything with you behind the console. Do a few jobs to where you get some notoriety, and then no matter what you charge...they will come for excellence. :) Here are a few suggestions.

1. Come up with your set-up time fee if they will be setting up instruments that you will be mic'ing. Or, since this is always a tough one based on what type of instruments come in, run the clock on this if you have to. When you're experienced at this though, it still shouldn't take more than two hours give or take to mic up a drum kit and sort out the other instruments within that same time frame.

2. Come up with your recording fee. Once everything is set up and ready to roll, how much will you charge for the actual recording session?

3. Come up with your editing time fee. How long does it usually take you to edit? Are you fast and accurate or slow and accurate? Your speed is the key here. Some guys are very slow editors either because they are not very good at it or they are a bit insecure. Too much time here can kill you...so you have to be careful. 

4. Combine all the fee's you came up with and come up with a final price for a song or whatever. Make a package deal out of it. Just as an example, 3 songs up to 32 tracks for $600 or something with little m mastering included and mp3's for digital downloads. Cut that down for guys with jingles that may be 30 seconds long. It's all about "options". In most decent studio's, you can get an album done for about 5k. Good studio's, 10k and above. Great studio's...you don't even wanna go there. LOL! If you're a decent studio yet have some competition in your area, go for $4500 or lower for an album of 10 songs. You can't make money if you have 0 business. Under-cut but really deliver the goods. It WILL pay off in the long run. 

5. Come up with mastering prices, but don't charge what a real mastering house would charge unless you are really qualified to do so and do it correctly. Using Ozone or any other mastering plug suite does not mean you're a mastering engineer. Unless you can go through all the motions that they do the right way, it's always refered to as "little m mastering". Most real mastering guys are $100-$200+ per song. The bigger the name, the more they charge. For little m mastering where you just sort of polish up a recording, keep it simple...no more than $30 per song or less if you can do it. If you have to do coding, gapping, ddp, pq sheets etc, make sure you have the right stuff to do this. You can chrage more for that since it becomes more of what real ME's do. You're the last person to touch this audio...you need the right ears and the right gear to do it right. If you can't do this, send it out. It makes a difference when it's all done right, trust me. There are a few great guys on this forum that do this stuff as well as myself if you ever need anything and we are every bit as good as the big time guys that do this stuff with a name.

So there are some general ideas as well as the awesome info Jeff has added. Best of luck and I hope some of this helps.

-Danny

Thanks to everyone for all of the ideas.

This was such a small job and unusual job, I didn't take a deposit.  I have to start thinking about that though as I get larger jobs in.

I charge very little per hour (in fact it is so low I am too embarrassed to say).  It is about what I am worth at my level of experience and the market that I am in.  So, I never thought that the client would balk at paying it.

I don't believe that I have enough experience to quote a fixed price.  I prefer charging by the hour for now.  However, if I feel that I have spent too much time on a particular part of the job, I simply "discount" the hours to the amount I think that I should have been able to do it.  I am very fair.

I keep track of all my time and detail it on the invoice.

Again, thanks for all of the ideas.

Tom

Good info within this thread fellas.  Tom I am sorry to hear you are dealing with that from a client, but thanks for the post as it is a learning experiance for others as well.   You sound like a pretty stand up guy so hopefully it works out for you.

tvolhein

I am curious.  What is a typical ratio of recording time versus editing, mixing, mastering, etc?

recording <--> mixing = unpredictable
 
1) As a client I've realized the ratio is too oft unpredictable ... performances vs samples must be recorded, remixed, re-recorded ... etc.
 
2) ELO's Jeff Lynne (producer singer) ... spent several years 'finishing' "Hello My Old Friend" (like 5+ years) ... as the drums necessarily evolved into simple beatz and the song had to be shortened and simplified (etc.) ... before Lynn decided to publish it.
 
Commercial pro recordings, OTOH, are oft per Danny and Jeff ... their excellent posts explain the 'concrete' process ... where timelines are a must.
 
3) As a client of Danziland I've realized I'd always fail to pay fairly for the prices of Danny's faithful and inspired-ears as well as his faithful and inspired bass and electric guitar performance-samples.
 
4) As a payer, I try to be willing to pay at least $50-100/hour to the one who faithfully delivers the 'inspired' goods ... and pay promptly.  The key words are 'faithful and inspired'!
 
5) As a payer, I try never to pay more than $250 for outside help unless someone else 'chips in'.
 
6) Artists oft prefer to make 'something out of nothing', 'beauty out of the mundane', etc.  Additionally, many artists get offended when they have to shell out for "God's free music".  Heck, I get offended when I see copyrights on hymns.