Getting serious about mixing

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bandontherun19
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2012/03/26 22:51:09 (permalink)

Getting serious about mixing

I've recorded dozens and dozens of songs, covers, originals, some Christmas music. Some of my mixes have been "OK" but usually they suck. I've had some help and some input from some people who are really good at it. I wish I were better at it, and there's really no excuse. I have the tools? I have good plugs. I have experience.
 
So the one I'm working on now, I'm going to try to present "a reasonably good mix" out of the gate. Before the wizards with the pointy hats can say, "dude... what in the hell were you thinking?"
 
My issue is "the gate." I said a good mix out of the gate? My thing is, once I track everything? And send it to buses, I tend to be WAY too impatient. I do everything so it takes me anywhere from severl weeks to longer to complete a project, and I want to be done with it and get it out. I tend to ignore or not pay the attention needed to the mixing/mastering phase.
 
I've told myself "self? this time, I'm not going to let you get away with your usual shenanigans..." This time, you are going to take the time, the time required? To actually get something that sounds as good as you can make it, without the help of people who are obviously much better at it than are you.
 
This time, you are not going to hurry that final step after all of the time spent tracking. I’ve been working on the drums for weeks! Now I’m on to things that should go quicker. But damn it! I do not want to push thing out like I always do, and rely on the kindness of experts to help me make it good. I’m going to try to put on the big boy pants and take some responsibility for the finished product, not just the performances where I usually focus (and shine).
 
There is an art to the whole technical aspect, and I’m going to try to stop ignoring it and employ “lessons learned.” It’s frustrating because I’ve always been more of an artist, and less of a technician? I’m vow to use my matching EQ, I’m going to employ “proper compression and limiting.” I’m vow to use mid/side techniques, I’m going to spread things appropriately in my stereo field, I’m going to saturate, widen, limit and delay as appropriate. . .
 
Then I’m going to send the “finished?” product to some people I respect, and look for feedback “BEFORE I POST IT!”
 
Stay tuned...

All you need is love, just ask the Beatles?
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    droddey
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    Re:Getting serious about mixing 2012/03/26 23:33:03 (permalink)
    This is the obvious way to go for self-recorders. I'd argue to put almost all of your efforts into composition, arrangement, performance, and tracking. If you get those things right, then you are already mixing long before you touch a fader, and the mix then become enhancement, not polishing you know whats. It obviously takes more time to do it that way, but ultimately it's the right thing to do. Mixers do what they do because they have to take whatever they get and make it work. Self-recorders don't have that constraint. They should put their time into recording it right.

    The other thing, which I find SO HARD to do, is to just do a rough demo of it first, without worrying about anything. Just get something in place that you can hear and react to. And then do another one. Given that self-recorders cannot do the thing that a band can do and just play songs and refine them in situ, it's inevitable that, unless you are a rock-n-roll Mozart, that you won't foresee things that you would quickly see if you heard it performed, even roughly. Unless you really get good at song writing in your head, those first tracks are almost always not as interactive and imaginative as they could be, because they are being created in a vacuum.

    Someone posted a video on Lennon's work on Strawberry Fields, which tracked his efforts. It was a long process and it went through lots of permutations. THAT's really what we should be doing, but it's so hard when you just want to sit down and record something. But, if we did, the songs we ended up recording would be vastly more refined, with much more interaction between parts, cool combinations of tones, etc...

    Here is the video. It shows Lennon in a hotel room 3 years before the song comes out playing around with an idea that ultimately ended up in the song, and then various rough demos he made as it came together.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS6wswlJCB4

    Dean Roddey
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    #2
    michaelhanson
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    Re:Getting serious about mixing 2012/03/26 23:47:19 (permalink)
    Dean, I so agree with you on this.  Unfortunately, I am one who is also impatient and already have another idea going in my head while I am recording one song, another is already in the works.  I find I have to force myself to slow down and get the tracks right the first time; then it makes mixing sooooooo much easier.

    To also kind of reenforce what you have said; I find that rewrites and doing songs a second time, always turn out way better than the original.  Once I have had the song around for a couple of years and have played it over and over, it all comes together more naturally as a performance.  I am not currently in a band and as you point out, that is where the artist used to kind of work everything out as a song was developing.  It gave you the freedom to try some ideas out and get the imput of others and even some instantainious live feedback.  I find the songs forum absolute essential to that proccess as a self writer and recordist.

    Mike

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    #3
    bitflipper
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    Re:Getting serious about mixing 2012/03/27 01:03:51 (permalink)
    Patience, in the absence of any external constraints, can mean working on it until you can't bear to listen to it one more time.

    Tonight I pulled up a project from 1995, gave it a listen and said "I can do better than that!". Two hours later, it's "done" -- again.



    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    #4
    droddey
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    Re:Getting serious about mixing 2012/03/27 01:55:08 (permalink)
    Yeh, every single time I've gone back to an old project (which I tortured myself over) I've gotten a vastly better result quickly. After it's been long enough, you forget all the assumptions you had about it while recording I think, and just hear it as stuff to mix.

    Dean Roddey
    Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
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    #5
    Philip
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    Re:Getting serious about mixing 2012/03/27 02:17:04 (permalink)
    Dean, I'm not sure I follow you.  My elder kid (21 y/o Caleb) told me yesterday that a good mix must be exquisite like a perfect studio painting ... and never performance-driven like the 80's.

    "I can tell when a song is performance-driven"; its 2-dimensional and sounds like a live-recorded garage-band which I hate.  Give me studio richness and pristine samples", he said.  That is today's expectation.

    "Classic-rock syndrome" is a neurotic disease I'm trying to break out of.

    Hey BandOnTheRun!  I'm like you, and I've faithfully listened to most of your mixes that you've posted in recent years (except I hate Christmas stuff)
    Honestly! ... I felt your mixes were all awesome mixes (to my ears).  Plus, you've got a lush redemptive vox to die for.  I'd prefer your vox over mine for a lot of songs.

    I've got 3 mixes on the front burner I'm not about to post, lest I make a fool of myself.  Like you, I don't rashly publish on songs forum any more until a song has gone through 'golden ears' that you speak of.

    These golden ears are collaborators, Danny, friends, kids, etc. in different environments.

    Plus I heartily invite you and Makeshift to send me your songs in private (exept during the December rush), and I'll crit on how to mix it better. 

    Likewise, others here would be flattered to crit for you in private, I'm certain.  Best of all, like salvation and prayer, its free!

    In sum:

    Danny Danzi, techniques-forum-artists, myself, and collab partners ALL are hyper-compassionate and know how to help.


    Philip  
    (Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

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    droddey
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    Re:Getting serious about mixing 2012/03/27 03:32:32 (permalink)
    I'll be kind and not offer my opinion of your kid's musical tastes. It's got nothing to do with classic rock syndrome. It's about being a musician and engineer, not a data processor. If your desire is to appeal to people who prefer data processing over music, then obviously that's each person's choice to make. Personally, at this point, being someone who puts performance over style (if you can really perform) is only going to make you stand out from the crowd. Being yet another person piling plugins on tracks and hacking samples together in the computer is just going to make you another drop in an ocean of the same.
     
    And, ultimately, if you really want to be an artist, you have to make music you believe in. I believe in performance and musical integrity, so that's the kind of music I have to make. If no one else likes it, oh well.
    post edited by droddey - 2012/03/27 03:42:13

    Dean Roddey
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    #7
    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Getting serious about mixing 2012/03/27 07:06:07 (permalink)
    droddey


    Yeh, every single time I've gone back to an old project (which I tortured myself over) I've gotten a vastly better result quickly. After it's been long enough, you forget all the assumptions you had about it while recording I think, and just hear it as stuff to mix.


    Which proves beyond all shadow of a doubt that as a mixing engineer, you're growing all the time.

    If anyone CAN'T  improve on a decade old project then either a) they have a precocious talent for mixing or b) they should give it all up immediately.

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    Rimshot
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    Re:Getting serious about mixing 2012/03/27 10:16:53 (permalink)
    I have been mixing for decades but still don't think I'm really good at it.  With that said, I do listen to drafts, ongoing mixes, etc.  all the time.  I play them back in my car in in my phones many many times.  Then, I note what I want to change and make that change and start again.  It's only when I have pretty much run out of ideas on how to make it better (for myself) that I stop.  
    I think I agree with all that has been said.  What I don't do is a fast mix and then call it done if there are things that bother me.  I try to work out those bumps before I final it.  

    Rimshot


    Rimshot 

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    bitflipper
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    Re:Getting serious about mixing 2012/03/27 15:15:16 (permalink)
    There is always the pernicious Dunning-Kruger Effect at work. This phenomenon comes up often in online discussions, usually as a justification for ridiculing others who are spectacularly clueless. In truth, it affects everyone, regardless of their level of accomplishment.

    I have seen this effect in myself. At every stage of my own development, I've felt like I was doing pretty good. Then I'll hear a song a year a later and cringe at how ham-fisted the mix was. It's been that way for the 40+ years I've been at it, with no indication that it's tapering off.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

    My Stuff
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    Rimshot
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    Re:Getting serious about mixing 2012/03/27 18:02:18 (permalink)

    Rimshot 

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    timidi
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    Re:Getting serious about mixing 2012/03/27 18:41:37 (permalink)

    and, don't forget to get rid of all the room noise carefully on all tracks.

    Robbay. I really don't think it's talent that is lacking. Is it impatience? I don't know.
    If I remember correctly, you don't have any/decent monitors. Um..
    That's your problem.

    And.... A BIG PLUS 1 to Bit's post........................


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    #12
    timidi
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    Re:Getting serious about mixing 2012/03/27 18:48:03 (permalink)
    My elder kid (21 y/o Caleb) told me yesterday that a good mix must be exquisite like a perfect studio painting ... and never performance-driven like the 80's. "I can tell when a song is performance-driven"; its 2-dimensional and sounds like a live-recorded garage-band which I hate.  Give me studio richness and pristine samples", he said.  That is today's expectation.



    That's really odd to me Philip. What I have gathered, is that todays 20 somethings want 'jangly raw sloppy'. The more the better. Any hint of artificial and it's out.

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    #13
    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Getting serious about mixing 2012/03/27 19:34:04 (permalink)
    Interesting .....  The Dunning-Kruger theory

    Basically do you know that you don;t know it? 


    Robby, track clean and use few FX. 

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    #14
    bandontherun19
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    Re:Getting serious about mixing 2012/03/27 21:45:30 (permalink)
    Herb, HERASSY!

    But I'll work on it. I've learned some new tricks I want to try... This HAAS effect? Seems like a pretty cool technique... I'm going to try to use it using Fabfilter Timeless 2. And mid-side mastering using Ozone, and some other things... So plugs are essential, they just need to be used correctly and in the right amount. 

    I started the Organ tonight, it will go quickly, a few days. Then Bass, guitars, and vocals. The vocals are going to be "challenging..." Because it's an old CSNY song? And I'm doing a tribute version. But the drums were the nut. Like Paul Masson who would sell no wine before its time. Or an old Jewish lady I knew who said "Take me to Miammiiiieeee!" No whine before its time.

    All you need is love, just ask the Beatles?
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    jamesyoyo
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    Re:Getting serious about mixing 2012/03/27 22:15:53 (permalink)
    Cut down on the number of tracks.
    Cut down on the number of takes per track.
    Make it sound balanced without any buss plugs other than compression and eq cuts.
    Only then add Ozone and start folling around with the mid side stuff.
    #16
    bitflipper
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    Re:Getting serious about mixing 2012/03/28 00:19:58 (permalink)
    Cut down on the number of tracks.

    Sage advice! 


    Not that I live by it myself (50+ track projects are the norm) but if I'm being honest about it, the quality of my recordings does seem to be inversely proportionate to the number of tracks.


    I used to think it was because lots of tracks make for a tricky mix. I no longer believe that to be the case, at least most of the time. More tracks means you're drifting further from the music, the reason you're doing it in the first place.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

    My Stuff
    #17
    Philip
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    Re:Getting serious about mixing 2012/03/28 03:01:14 (permalink)
    timidi



    My elder kid (21 y/o Caleb) told me yesterday that a good mix must be exquisite like a perfect studio painting ... and never performance-driven like the 80's. "I can tell when a song is performance-driven"; its 2-dimensional and sounds like a live-recorded garage-band which I hate.  Give me studio richness and pristine samples", he said.  That is today's expectation.



    That's really odd to me Philip. What I have gathered, is that todays 20 somethings want 'jangly raw sloppy'. The more the better. Any hint of artificial and it's out.
    I may have misquoted him.  He's an eclectic performer and loves classical and trance music (neither are my cup of tea)
     
    Rather, I'm 'currently' a melodyne rat who prefers beatz hybrids sweetly painted with painstaking layers over months and years: 40 tracks on the average. 
     
    I spend most of my time covering mistakes and doing retakes ... like life itself !!!!!
     
    Performance-driven classic-rock garage bands just aren't my cup-of-tea.  Kick and snare sounds like puke at times as I grow older and approach my long home.  But I'm certain there will be better bass-drums and cymbals in heaven, amidst the stringed instruments of gold.
     
    The last song, ELO, I purchased was 15 years ago.
     
    I'm sorry fellas!  Hypocritically, my dislike of garage band performances doesn't stop me from enlisting Danny's empathetic guitar samples (which he claims are performance-driven 80's rock) ... I suppose there's good and evil in every instrument and player I select from.
     
    But classic rock and country music is pretty dead for me of late.  I prefer other genres for skating, singing, playing etc.  Again, I'm sorry to speak the bad news.
     
    To each his own I guess.

    Philip  
    (Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

    Raised-Again 3http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12307501
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