Performance vs. Portrait Painting (Music-Artists please)

I think you scared them all away with that post. LOL! If I didn't know you and love you like a brother, I think I'd be a dust cloud too! Hahahahaha!

To be honest, this is a catch 22 to me. The reason I say that is, we can't put that type of stress on art unless it's justified. For example, and it pains me to say this about other people, but we have quite a few people that post music that think it's great where it really isn't. The reason it isn't great is because the performance lacks. You can have the greatest mix, production, samples etc...if the performance is dismal, your drums sound like the dude is falling down the steps, you sing out of key, you use too much pitch correction because you can't sing, play an instrument faster than you can really play it, have bad timing on vocal delivery or instrument delivery etc etc...there's a turd that pro production won't even fix.

So you have to have the performance in order to allow for the brush strokes. Think about it Philip. If I drew a picture in pencil with a real fine point to just get my sketch down, a beautiful detailed sketch is where I need to be before I color it in, right? However, a number 1 pencil may be too "processed" for a sketch to where it may be like an instrument that's over done or not done correctly. For example, if I would have used super gain guitars in the last lead guitar part I gave you for the tune we were working on...it would have still sounded good, but the "stroke" of the pencil being too gainy wouldn't have been the right choice for this particular song, follow me? Just like the number 1 pencil may look good....but the number 3 may be the better choice for THIS particular sketch.

The idea is to have the sketch as good as it can be without the need for major work or surgery on a mix. There is a difference between experimenting with your parts vs. surgery/polishing a turd or mixing for weeks on something. Good samples, choices, alignment, experimentation like you do...all takes time. Some of it is inspiration. You can't get blood from a stone. You can sit down today and say "I'm going to work on some ideas or maybe work on a song". It's rare you can sit down and say "today I'm going to write a song". You CAN do that if the inspiration is there....but when it isn't, you're better off going skating or fishing or something.

All the stuff you posted under 3), I completely disagree with. You're being way hard on yourself. Some people are poets...some people are musical or backing creators, some are sample savvy, some can sing, some try to sing but can do back ups....you do the best you can and just enjoy it. If you don't feel you're a good singer...you won't be a good singer ever if you stop singing. Some are born with a voice, others have to work on it for years. I'm one of those people. I worked for years on my voice and I'm still not happy with it. Some people are naturals, others aren't. The idea is to enjoy the ride whilst creating. Think of the people that wish they could have a computer to make music...or some sort of instrument. Do you think they would be concerned with how good or bad they were? They's just embrace that they were able to make noise and have fun for a while.

You're in a different place. You've had your fun making noise, so you want to reach out and go beyond...nail some of the performance stuff, maybe get better in certain areas where you may be lacking, right? If that's true, you're not alone. Baby steps...work on things a little at a time and don't stress if you have a bad day. Let me tell you, if it were all too easy, you'd not have any interest in it. A challenge is a good thing...frustration is not. So that's an F word you want out of your vocabulary and if it exists, you need to flush it asap or it can totally deter your progress and have an impact on your desire.

As for the analog thing, this is an age thing. Most of us grew up on vinyl. Some of us are set in our ways. So be it. I was raised on classic rock. I got the 80's bug and pretty much never moved on for my own stuff. I'm content with that. This is what inspired me. I have no regrets. BUT, the idea for me (and what I feel everyone should sort of at least think about) is to have a sound that is familiar...meaning 80's...with a now sounding production of sorts...but not so dry. I like the sound of a good 80's processed guitar. Van Halen, George Lynch etc...those tones just blow me away to where the tones of today don't hit me as hard nor do they make me want to play guitar. I like drum sounds of today...but with some of the effects used in the 80's in moderation. I like some of the weirdness in today's material as well as some of the "album trip" stuff of the late 60's and early 70's. I like singers that truly sing...sing in key, know how to vocally deliver, use vibrato correctly and have a pleasant to listen to timbre. This style can be taken from any era where singers did the above....so it no longer becomes an 80's thing...it just doesn't become a 90's to present vocal thing because to me, most of the good rock vocalists died after the singer in Alice in Chains passed.
 
But my point is...throw all those styles into one and you're gonna get something that resembles the 80's of course, but in MY image. Being in love with classic rock is ok...borrow from it. Even the sounds if you feel you must...but the thing to be careful there is...most of them were sort of on the warm side...kinda boxy and as soon as you cop that sound, it can date you just like my guitar playing and tone dates me. Can you live with that? I can...I'm a product of the 80's and I'm proud.

Lyrics: some guys tell it like it is in a song, others can hide the meanings to where you either don't know what the heck they are singing about, or the song can be taken 3 different ways. Most of us wish we can do the 3 different things like Robert Plant...but that's a gift we don't see often. Even Cobain from Nirvana had some interesting lyrics even though I was never a fan of his stuff. But lyrically...he was pretty out there and crafty.

Copying: We all have our inspirations. Sometimes some of us go too far and never find ourselves. Others, take what they want from someone and use it to their advantage. When you try to be original...you fail. Let it come to you. Don't try to redefine the face of music or stress out about it. If you get an idea today and write about it, God gifted you. When I write, I don't ever think "ok, this sounds too 80's" or "hmm, maybe this sounds a bit too much like a Disturbed song". Then again, if something does sound like it could be a blatant rip, that's when you have to make a change. LOL! But enjoy the moment and the inspiration brother. Sometimes our lyrics are strange, silly, cheesy, predictable, out there, dual meaning, tell it like it is, prayers, jibberish....you take the inspiration and run with it. If you don't keep at it, you never get better at this.

In my opinion, to sum it all up, I'll take a stellar performance from a garage band that can play before I'll take synthetic, perfect and polished production featuring "The Turd Burglars"....but that's just me. :) Don't be so hard on yourself...I think you're fantastic and way over thinking some of this. :)

-Danny

Here are my thoughts for what they are worth.  

   On a few productions here and there I have done all the instrumentation and the vocals for entire recording and it really can be tough unless (like you said above) you can really envision the entire production and what all parts will be doing from the beggining.  I feel pretty gifted in this area in that I play so many instruments and play them well enough that at some point I have played each instrument in one band or another over the years that when writing the basic parts I near immediately hear all the others in my head.  

  When inspiration hits me is almost always when the house is quiet (maybe my wife took the kids shopping or something...) and I grab my guitar and start noodling around.  If I come across something I really like that strikes me I can usually grab a piece of paper and a pen, Light a cig, grab my guitar and have the songs basic rythem parts, lyrics, and vocal melody down in about a half hour.  I usually force myself to stop there because I do play with a band because if I allow myself to ponder for 30 seconds on it I will have the entire thing orchastrated in my head including the drum, bass, back vocal parts, intro's and outro's.   Then nothing else will seem right when the other members come up with something different (no matter how good the parts may be).   Plus, no musician wants to be told what parts they have to play on an original....  If you do, they will generally rebel against it and will never ever feel any sense of ownership in the song themselves so their performance will always be lack luster.

   I like to play them out for a couple months so everyone gets their parts down and honed in but always find that when it comes time to record everyone realizes there is still room for improvement.  Usually it the bassist suddenly pays more attention to something the drummer has been doing and wants to re-write his part to lock up better or visa-versa, or one guitarist realizes he strumming a part different from the other guitarist.    When I was paying for studio time,  this aggrivated me to no end.   One engineer once looked at me (whilst my bass player at the time was re-writing and struggling with a back vocal harmony in the vocal booth) and just kinda shrugged and said "expensive practive time!".    
   When recording I strive to capture a live vibe and energy with flawless performances, then once tracked and all parts are set in stone (so to speak), I strive to duplicate that version live.  I am a creature of habit and play everything identical everytime.  Singing and playing guitar at the same time is more like one instrument to me and is all combined to the point where I have had times that I broke a string on stage, and the spit second of distraction caused me to forget the next vocal line LOL.  Though with that said,  I also find it best (if needed) to go ahead a sacrafice a little bit of that perfection while playing live for the sake of actually putting on a stage show.  My band members ages range from 21 to 46.  I am 34, We still jump around like we are 17 and run all over the place.   You gotta keep in mind that "entertain" is the largest part of "entertainment".  If you are getting paid to play you really owe it to the crowd to put on a show!    I'm alway telling the guys in my band "you gotta overdo it to really sell it".  If you stand there and moderately rock back and forth, to all intents and purposes from the crowd it looks like you are standing still.    If you are gonna jump and you just hop, you look like a bunny.  You better get some freakin' air so they can see it.
   Here's a great shot of my guitarist doing just that from earlier this month.  On this song I am on vox, my singer is on the kit, and my drummer is on my guitar.  He got some damn height!

 I am afraid I started on topic and meandered off a bit but you get my point above.  The other thing Philip is (I don't know about you but for me) I write 3 times as many songs as I will ever present to my band mates.  Not every idea or song concept is actually worth exploring to me.  I find the good ones come out naturally and fairly quickly.  If it needs to be molded and shaped, re-written, and start over.... for me it's a loser.  On to the next one!     Sometimes I just have to sit back and look at subjectively even if I love the idea and say.... THIS SUCKS!  I scrap it and move on.
That may be just me though.
 
  

JMO on everything ... Again, I have no right or wrong answers for you guys, just feelings.

Thanks Danny, Bat, Mike, and Chuck for your brave thoughts and 'current' resolution(s) in this important pondering.

Danny, Great post brother; but I think you might have 'reacted' to my ponders or something.  #3 above is just a personal spook that haunts me as true, I'm afraid, to my conscience ... lest my ego tells me that so-and-so is "the best performer".  I'm just trying to decipher performance from painting. 

Not all hymns are sung by angels nor all hip-hop by devils.  But its all vanity of vanities, our sweet inventions, sooner or later it gets boring and dies.

For me, living down here on earth is all about making beauty ... that is painting music or job-performances.  I cut elderly toenails as musically as you play the guitar, IMO.
 
... yet all beauty may fall short of spiritual glories (if one admits to those glories). 

Bat, by your simplified statement, Perhaps everyone on the planet should be labeled "best performer/painter", depending on his/her ego.  Please elaborate.  I realize that rock artists and performers may sometimes think they alone are self-actuated or such ... that makes them similar over time perhaps.  Again, you may want to elaborate on (1) "best", (2) "performer", and/or (3) what, in your opinion, is "one and the same".

Mike: I follow your thoughts.  Well spoken, IMHO.  Yeah!  We need each other brother; I'll try to be here for you.  I just got some leeway this week (the family went out on a half-week vacation and I'm catching up on some serious mixing finally).  The Beatles, are a bit bland for me of late ... hahahaha!  And everyone says I sound like them :):):).

Chuck: Well spoken: You're an inspired pro who struggles ... even more than me (an inspired hobbyist who struggles):  Arranging, vs. writing, vs. performing, vs. singing, vs. singing and playing.  What an act!

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OK back on topic:

Also, consider: you and I probably don't even know what music or life really is.  (Oh sure, we have our political-measuring devices that 'detect life', etc. ... but are really just 'winging' it ... haahaha!)

Its true, I'm guessing, that performers and studio artists approach a 'common ground' but may be 'better' as just a painter who layers things ... or as a seasoned performer who memorizes things.  Again, this is speculation.

IIRC, Mark Baxter stated that there are 2 successful singers: the extreme Emotive and the extreme Virtuoso ... but that most of us straddle the fence of emotive vs. virtuoso.

Perhaps there are  no 'bests' out there ... as everyone has a story to sing ... though he/she paints and performs in some sober niche or such ... one that might not be your/my stereotype.

Fellow artists; I await more of your honest and excellent thoughts.  Please pardon my grammar (I just cut about 500 fungal toenails and drove 200 miles ... mixing in my car-studio)

Utmost blessings to you all!

+ 1

I'm right there with you U-Bubba.

At my age I figure it's all gas and if I throw it on out, and anyone listens, then that is what happened. The rest has been usually all a comedy act anyway in the end.

"Everyone has their own approach, style, skill level, experiance level , influences, and motivating factors."

Actually, I find that it matters for me ... its quite satisfying and creative to learn from my friends here, their thoughtful biographies, and to collab with so many of you.

That helps me deliver the songs as an inspired person and less as a fake.  Music is a higher life worth understanding and learning ... for me.

IOWs ... To faithfully inquire how performance-driven vs. studio-driven art is reconciled by you and others is critical for me.  (And critical for you, too.  Your posts seem pretty thoughtful for one who denies meaning -- hahahahaha!)

OTOH, if my questions are too doting, dribbling, trolling, or whatever ... I can learn from my wife at home and try to shut it up for a season (no promises, OK?)

ChuckC


Nah, I am not asking ya to shut up man!   It's what ever works for you.  I enjoy a lot of yer posts, and yeah I try to think through what I am trying to communicate when I post (sometimes I fail miserably).   I am not saying there is no meaning, you just seem to be looking asthough there is one right answer and the rest are all wrong.  That's my point I guess.  We all do it in what ever way works for us, and gets the results that make us happy.  If we were in it for the money alone, I for one would be writing pop songs for cute little blondes and brunettes to sing or country songs.  In which case I'd have to move to nashville or something and learn to write great stuff on command in sessions that are booked in advance.  

Chuck LOL! No worries, he won't shut up...and I hope he never does. :) He's the spirit of the techniques forum! :) Philip in his own way, is more anal than you and I. And you know how crazy you and I can get with perfection on things. He's a very deep, passionate soul that is sometimes way hard on himself. He'll send me a tune to listen to that says something along the lines of "I'm not really crazy about this, it could use this that and this but what are your thoughts?" I listen and the first thing that comes to mind is "lmao...you're a lunatic Philip, this is great!" (lunatic of course meant in the most respectful way. It's a "bow down" musician word of praise)
 
One thing I notice....when he asks these deep, intelligent, soul searching questions on the forum, I believe our answers feed his inspiration on something he's working on. The next thing you know, something incredible pops up in my mail box. So I actually get excited when I see these posts because I know something grand will be coming my way soon. :)
 
Not only that, but I think he's made for some of the best conversations we've ever had in the techniques forum and I actually get all happy and stuff when I see he's posted. I think he makes us all think and keeps us on our toes. Never change a thing, Philip...much love and respect to you brother. :)

I think it all boils down to one of two ideals:
energy and perfection. Sometimes, they are as close as atoms, other times they are chasms apart. You know it when you hear it. A good performance has both, but some artists can be so proficient at one that the other is rendered moot.
Think of Celine Dion, perfect vocals, most of the time carried with a faux emotion that leaves me cold. Super popular.
Think of the Ramones, as sloppy/tight as you can get. Super popular.

Here's a portrait of my music

Philip

Again, if you dare! ... what are your ponderings on Performing vs Portrait Painting (in your music).
 
 

This is a very provocative question for me personally.  It’s a topic to which I’ve given much thought.  Why?  Well, I’m strictly, totally, 100% a studio guy ... not counting several choruses in which I sing ... I’m talking about the creation of music with computers.
 
My aspirations in this area are to create synthesizer transcriptions of "classical" compositions of several 19th and 20th century composers, and I don’t have anywhere near the keyboard chops to play much of this music as an actual performance.  But with the magic of various forms of DAW data entry, it’s easy to construct note-perfect MIDI tracks of sequences so difficult that the finest virtuosos couldn’t manage to play them in real time.  Want to bang out the Minute Waltz in 10 seconds?  No sweat.
 
But there is an immense challenge in creating music in this fashion where the result is a performance that sounds fluid and compelling.  Step entered or quantized music sounds utterly mechanical.  Randomizing quantized proximity to beat boundaries doesn’t begin to "humanize" the sound.  Dynamics aren’t any less important than they are in real-time performance but the most inspired dynamics won’t overshadow the mechanical nature of constant-tempo MIDI playback.
 
In my experience the trick to making this all work is exhaustive and detailed use of the tempo map.  In a convincing performance of "classical" repertoire, tempo may subtly change not only every quarter-note beat but sometimes every eighth-note or every triplet.  To that end, tempo specification and editing facilities are one of the most important aspects of a DAW for me.
 
Sonar has somewhat adequate tempo capabilities in this area, but they are far from great.  The thing is, no other DAW has anything better as far as I’ve been able to determine.  Superior tempo control capabilities would be the one and only thing that would motivate me from switching from Sonar to an alternate platform.
 
I have no illusions about the world waiting with baited breath for anyone’s synthesizer orchestrations of Mendelssohn or Poulenc ... I’m doing this solely for my own gratification.  And I must also sadly acknowledge that my passion for expressive tempo mapping tools is no doubt not widely shared.  I’ll keep hoping for CW to recognize the value of improving their tempo editing capabilities but I’m not at all optimistic it will ever happen.