and just to clarify a little further, you mentioned the JV1080, I don't know it specifically, but I suspect that it is not a true FULLY sampled instrument.  it may have a few samples that it uses to manipulate the note sounds, but I'm pretty certain it does not have all piano notes sampled at 128 velociites, and probably not even likely that it has 4 layers.

the JV's sound module might have one note per instrument or maybe as many as one sample per note to manipulate.  it would use those samples as the base sound and then use oscillators and filters to manipulate it to different levels of velocity and different pitches using the synth "brain" to create these sounds "on the fly" as you strike the keys.

so the JV might have 128 different velocities that it outputs.  but they're not individually sampled outputs.  they're digitally manipulated outputs based on the JV synth brain.

Beagle you're right on target.


Now I like the Studio Instruments.  I don't expect them to have lots of velocity layering. Not for the price I paid for them which was nothing.

If I may be so bold, I think actually Jind does understand and maybe you don't?  I could be wrong and forgive me if I am, but I think you're not understanding what "velocity layers" means.

Reece. You may be as bold as you deem necessary. And, you are forgiven. No offense takin at all, ever from you.


But, I think (and maybe that's the main problem here:) that what I started this thread about has nothing to do with "Layers". And, I don't think (there it is again) that I mentioned "layers" anywhere except in response to someone's reference to the word "layers". And, I really don't understand why everyone is talking about "layers".


I am talking about "velocity sensitivity". Now, maybe that whole concept has changed or gone away in the past 15 years and I missed it. If so, please continue on with the bold education process..  

timidi

If I may be so bold, I think actually Jind does understand and maybe you don't?  I could be wrong and forgive me if I am, but I think you're not understanding what "velocity layers" means.

Reece. You may be as bold as you deem necessary. And, you are forgiven. No offense takin at all, ever from you.


But, I think (and maybe that's the main problem here:) that what I started this thread about has nothing to do with "Layers". And, I don't think (there it is again) that I mentioned "layers" anywhere except in response to someone's reference to the word "layers". And, I really don't understand why everyone is talking about "layers".


I am talking about "velocity sensitivity". Now, maybe that whole concept has changed or gone away in the past 15 years and I missed it. If so, please continue on with the bold education process..  

good!  glad I'm not offending you!
 
but even though you haven't mentioned layers except in response to others, that's the key that I think you're missing.  samplers are recorded in velocity layers and output in layers.  synths do not, they respond to algorithms set up by the synth brain and output 1-127 velocity since they can calculate each note output as needed.
 
if you're using a sampler, regardless of whether it's Studio Instruments, Gigastudio, Kontakt, or DimPro, then you're using velocity layers as I described above.  some patches have more layers than others which will give you a more dynamic sound.   others, like Studio Instruments, have only 1 layer or only a few layers which will give you a very EVEN sound and not very dynamic.  soft output is not possible from a sampled instrument with only 1 velocity layer except by use of volume, not velocity.

If I read this right, OP is suggesting that in an instrument with a single layer - e.g. a piano, he is not hearing  much *level* difference between playing lightly and and playing hard, as opposed to hearing a range of different samples across a range of dynamics i.e. velocities.  If I am correct, that means he is talking about dynamic expression rather than tonal expression.


I can't comment about solutions as I rarely use it - some of strings are handy as pads.  I used to spend way too much time at the beginning of a project searching though tons of libraries for every instrument I wanted to use, and moving away from creating music.  These days my default template is TTS-1 until I get a working project together, and then I start swapping out sounds and fleshing out the project.  Over time I have built a number of templates of my favorites for synth patches -> Audio chains as well as PC channel > Bus chains for the physical instruments, but I still start with that simple old synth while I am getting ideas and recording.  It is surprising how much of that TTS-1 end up in the final mix.


Bit OT - sorry


Cheers


Grif
 

Beagle

timidi

Jind

timidi


Thanks Bit.

Maybe I'm being unclear though. I think I may have a different grasp of what others mean by "velocity". 

When I say Velocity, I mean the ability to play soft to loud passages. You know, like it's supposed to be. Like playing a piano (a real piano). You play it with a delicate touch and the note sounds delicately or softer. You play a note hard and it's louder.

At this point I'm not really concerned about how many sample layers make up the sound. And, to me, the number of samples should really have nothing to do with velocity sensitivity. My JV1080 probably has one 10kbit sample for a patch's entire sound, but it plays a lot more realistically.

I just really find it hard to believe that in 2012, Cakewalk cannot seem to ever finish baking the friggin CAKE...... I might be jumping the gun with that remark as maybe I'm wrong or something's wrong with my controller. But, the controller does work pretty good with other synths. So, I'm really at a loss. 
Is it really as lame as it seems?

I think we all understand exactly what you are saying and Bit's response pretty much confirms it.  Velocity layers are very limited in Studio Instruments, sometimes no velocity layers other than a single layer, sometimes a few more, some have round robin samples so it will not play the same sample every time so the other sample may have a lower velocity (volume), but not enough to play soft to loud passages.  Only the drums seem to have more than 4 velocity levels.


 

Thanks jind. But, No, I don't think you do understand. But, that's fine.
"velocity layers" is not what I am talking about at all. "layers" have nothing to do with anything. 
Unless, you consider "A layer" as 1 of 127 possibilities. However, even then, it may or may not be velocity sensitive.

Hi Tim,
If I may be so bold, I think actually Jind does understand and maybe you don't?  I could be wrong and forgive me if I am, but I think you're not understanding what "velocity layers" means.
 
sampled instruments do not come with 128 different possibilities of velocity, or at least, I've never seen that many in any sampled instruments.  It would be a HUGE set of files just for one instrument (piano for example) to get that many different velocities from a sampled instrument because you have to sample each velocity for each note at least one time (and samplers usually sample each note more than once).
 
add that the to fact that humans can't really play 128 different velocities anyway, not accurately trying to reach each velocity.  in other words, if I tried to sample only the Middle C of a piano for 128 different velocities, I'd probably get groups of velocities (if they were "measured" as velocities) with a resolution of probably 10, maybe 5 velocities if I were really good.
 
so the samplers use velocity layers to create "levels" of velocities.  each layer is a range of velocities for the sampler to output a particular tone depending on the velocity you strike the key with.  for example, a lot of popular sampled pianos only have about 4 velocity layers.  I'm making the numbers up, but the principal is still the same - so for example velocities 1 thru 31 would be "layer 1", 32 thru 63 would be "layer 2", 64 thru 95 would be "layer 3" and 96 thru 127 would be "layer 4"
 
when you strike the keys at a velocity of 30, 27, 5, 12, 18, your output would all be layer 1
when you strike the keys at a velocity of 33, 60, 55, 48, 39, your output would all be layer 2
etc.
 
Ivory II that just came out last year has a large amount of velocity layers - 18, IIRC.  so with Ivory, your resolution is about 7 velocities per layer, which is extremely fine in regards to your dynamic output and very rare when compared to other sampled instruments.
 
I suspect that Studio Instruments has 2 or 3 velocity layers, maybe 4 at the most depending on the instrument or patch you're talking about, but I haven't done any research to verify that.  there could be some patches that have only 1 velocity layer.  all 128 velocities would output the same "volume" for any velocity input.  striking the key at a velocity of 1 would output the same sound as striking it at 127.
 
If you understood all of that before I typed it, I apologize, but it seemed to me that you didn't understand what "velocity layers" meant with regards to sampled instruments.
 
HTH.

// -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
//
// MQ Tama Snares Sample Set
// Tama Star Classic Performer (Birch) 14"x5.5" tuned for woody sound
// recorded on May 13th 2007 by Mike and Gia McCue www.harmoniccycle.com
//
// -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Acoustic Snare:
<group> key=38 loop_mode=one_shot
<region> lovel=000 hivel=015 sample=MQ Tama Snares\MQ TamaStarClassic14x5birch 01.wav
<region> lovel=016 hivel=024 sample=MQ Tama Snares\MQ TamaStarClassic14x5birch 02.wav
<region> lovel=025 hivel=033 sample=MQ Tama Snares\MQ TamaStarClassic14x5birch 03.wav
<region> lovel=034 hivel=042 sample=MQ Tama Snares\MQ TamaStarClassic14x5birch 04.wav
<region> lovel=043 hivel=047 sample=MQ Tama Snares\MQ TamaStarClassic14x5birch 05.wav
<region> lovel=048 hivel=052 sample=MQ Tama Snares\MQ TamaStarClassic14x5birch 06.wav
<region> lovel=053 hivel=057 sample=MQ Tama Snares\MQ TamaStarClassic14x5birch 07.wav
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<region> lovel=065 hivel=069 sample=MQ Tama Snares\MQ TamaStarClassic14x5birch 09.wav
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<region> lovel=080 hivel=084 sample=MQ Tama Snares\MQ TamaStarClassic14x5birch 12.wav
<region> lovel=085 hivel=089 sample=MQ Tama Snares\MQ TamaStarClassic14x5birch 13.wav
<region> lovel=090 hivel=094 sample=MQ Tama Snares\MQ TamaStarClassic14x5birch 14.wav
<region> lovel=095 hivel=099 sample=MQ Tama Snares\MQ TamaStarClassic14x5birch 15.wav
<region> lovel=100 hivel=104 sample=MQ Tama Snares\MQ TamaStarClassic14x5birch 16.wav
<region> lovel=105 hivel=109 sample=MQ Tama Snares\MQ TamaStarClassic14x5birch 17.wav
<region> lovel=110 hivel=114 sample=MQ Tama Snares\MQ TamaStarClassic14x5birch 18.wav
<region> lovel=115 hivel=119 sample=MQ Tama Snares\MQ TamaStarClassic14x5birch 19.wav
<region> lovel=120 hivel=127 sample=MQ Tama Snares\MQ TamaStarClassic14x5birch 20.wav

Did Cakewalk ever fix the out of tune bass samples that were sent out with Dimension Pro's "Real Bass" bass samples?

I hope I'm not coming across as offending as it's not my intent. It just seems to be a case of expecting too much from Studio Instruments (which I've tried to make clear - I still use, knowing what it is capable of, and what it is not).  

No worries Jind.

Layers may be more "authentic" for sampling "real" instruments, but they are not needed for velocity response.

Bingo.

Fond memories of "Edlin" then?!

Interesting thread.
 
I used to use the SIs a lot in the early days. I still have some projects that use them.
 
If you can open their respective .sfz files, and you know what you're doing, you can add and edit velocity parameters, as well as a host of other triggers, to the files. But they will only work IF the instrument is capable of responding to them.
 
Editing .sfz files manually can be tedious and take a lot of time if you're up to it. Save the originals in case things go wrong, tho.
 
Also, you should be able to load the .sfz files into another instrument like Dimension Pro or whatever and see if they respond better.
 
Another thing about SIs is that they are a little unstable and sometimes unpredictable. I used to have them skip notes and do other weird things on playback.
 
What I liked about the Bass is it's slide function. It's pretty simple but effective and adjustable.
 
Steve

How old is his thread?
 
Strange to see our late friend ba_midi's posts again.

Old does not mean not relevant.
 
I learned something.