Help me figure out that 1176...

I've stated in a previous thread that I had been comparing 1176 models and that CLA's won me over quickly. When someone asked, I said I didn't really want to turn it into a brand war.

Nevertheless, I went back to that other plug-in last night, because I know some people dig it and I figured I'd give it another try, that maybe I was doing something "wrong". And maybe I still am. 

Of course, you can't expect settings to match perfectly. This is far from anything scientific, and sincerely, I'm open to suggestions if someone has any input in terms of how I should try to test them differently. I own both plug-ins and I'd certainly be happy if anyone could enlighten me and point me in the right direction instead of just giving up one one of them. 

Also keep in mind I've never worked w/ the hardware version, so I'm not trying to prove anything or claiming that one is a better emulation. But one I can understand and use as a dynamic processor and the other merely seems to cut the transient short and boost the decay.

My first model was IK's Black 76. 

First thing I realized is that even at the most extreme settings (input all the way up, all buttons in) I wasn't getting anywhere near what I get in CLA in terms of Gain Reduction. While CLA's needle will be steadily indicating max gain reduction, the Black 76 may swiftly touch 10 db and move back. After a bit of research, I learned that, by design, the Black 76 had lower input, though they increased it by 10db in a revision. 

But even after updating it, it was almost impossible to get as much gain reduction w/o peaking OR bringing down the output level. As a result, you get a much louder peak and quieter track/less overall loudness to get the same kind of action. 

This already makes the Black 76 a bit harder to use for dynamic processing, IMHO. Experts may have a different opinion.

Second thing I noticed was that the release button on the Black 76 had a rather subtle effect say the least, and unless you push it totally counter clockwise (longest release time, 1100 ms according to IK, so in theory even longer than CLA) it didn't make much difference. And even then, it was nowhere near CLA. So there's a whole world of possibilities between the fastest and the slowest release that I just couldn't seem to conjure w/ the Black 76. 

The result when you really push it is a very short transient immediately followed by boosted decay. I messed w/ the attack setting to no avail - maybe the attack was indeed longer but if so, it must have drown anything past that first transient into distorted decay. 

I did the little comparison below. Just a kick and a cymbal. 

All buttons in. Attack on both CLA and IK was set to 5. Maximum release time on both. I tried to get as much gain reduction as I could, but the Black 76 really makes it hard. I opted to not push CLA as hard as I could have.

Here's the signal kicking in - as you notice, IK (bottom) is very very short, barely audible because it's so quick, but actually louder - it basically just give the signal time to peak in before severely taking it down - but the reduction doesn't last. By comparison, CLA gives you something a lot more substantial. You get a much beefier kick.




Onto the release portion. 

After letting that beefy kick in, CLA keeps the signal down for a second (max release time) and then you hear it (and see it) climbing back in. The Black 76 did all the reduction on the actual kick and now simply boosts the decay. It "sounds" like something but dynamically, it's not happening. There's a slight indication that something is happening after 1100 ms, that there's a slight increase in volume.




So for me the Black 76 is harder to manage, w/ very short transients, less overall gain reduction and a release control that doesn't really seem to affect the signal, at least, not as I understand it should and as CLA and other compressors seem to work.

The only way I can seem to get that beefy kick is by renouncing to get half as much gain reduction and controlling the dynamics. The results inevitably end up like above. I can manage to get more kick in, a very short but radical dip in volume and boosted decay. But I can't shape the sound. I get the 1176 "sound" I guess, but virtually no control over the dynamics. 

If I try and push the input on the CLA, I get consistent result - so it's easy to get a HUGE Kick, massive gain reduction but more signal in the long run...  (that's w/ the same attack and release but the input pushed up on CLA-76)





Before anyone ask, this was done w/ the less aggressive CLA "Blacky". 

To be fair, w/ more reasonable settings, the Black 76 seems to work a bit better. But w/ more reasonable settings, I often ended up replacing it w/ my basic compressor in FET mode because it sounded just as good and was more flexible. And when I put the Black 76 on a bus and try the infamous all buttons in, I feel like the image above shows what I hear. 

If any one has suggestions, I'm open to trying them. I don't consider myself an expert, but the truth is that I can set up pretty much any of my other compressors to get very dynamic and punchy results, but for serious dynamic processing, the Black 76 seem to elude me, besides the obvious "warmth". I know many people with much more experience and reputed engineers who seem to be giving it the thumbs up, but I can't figure it out.

Thanks for the bump on this one, Starise.

Funny I've just finished installing Pro Tools and the first thing I've tried is to compare IK's 1176 w/ the old Bomb Factory's 1176 model.

IK's  Black 76 seems to dramatically increase the attack speed as you push the input - IOW, the more gain reduction, the quicker the compression kick in until there's nothing left but what's in the image above. 

Whether it's intended or not, I have no idea. But I get much beefier result w/ BF and CLA.

batsbrew


my guess is, it's the intention of the designer for the software to react the way it does.

and in the end, it's usefulness on one thing, maybe be diminished on another.
doesn't mean it's not doing what it intended to do, only, that it is the wrong tool for the job.

that's why pro studios, have several flavors of compressors and limiters in hardware.

But one 1176 clone should not be that drasticly different to another clone...

bapu

Smedberg


But one 1176 clone should not be that drasticly different to another clone...

Then why have more than one on the market?

Well, I'll tell you this much. I can definitely hear and tell that the Bomb Factory and the Waves compressor are in the same ballpark and deduct certain characteristics from that even if I don't own a 1176.

Both BF and Waves are similar. If you can set up one, you'll be able to use the other - they work just the same, overall. BF doesn't sound quite as aggressive and tight and I prefer CLA, but they behave and sound similar. 

Even Logic's compressor in FET mode is quite close, though obviously it doesn't have an all buttons in setting - but you can push it, even get distortion and manage the attack and release, though they may vary.

Black 76 sounds similar - for example, it distorts when you push all buttons in. But it stops there. 

But where the manual says "when the Black 76 is in this ALL mode,  distortion increases radically due to a lag time on the attack of initial transients and there are constant changes in the attack and release times", I can't seem to figure out how they've implemented that. If there's a lag, I'm getting all the opposite here - very short attack times.

But one 1176 clone should not be that drasticly different to another clone...

No two real 1176's sound identical, so for any two software emulations to sound identical, they would have to both be modeled from the same hardware unit.


Personally, I don't understand the obsession with modeled compressors, or for that matter, compressors in general. Or why people feel the need to have so many of them. Give me just one versatile compressor that has all the necessary features and I'm set.

bitflipper

But one 1176 clone should not be that drasticly different to another clone...

No two real 1176's sound identical, so for any two software emulations to sound identical, they would have to both be modeled from the same hardware unit.


Personally, I don't understand the obsession with modeled compressors, or for that matter, compressors in general. Or why people feel the need to have so many of them. Give me just one versatile compressor that has all the necessary features and I'm set.

I understand your point, Bit. 


Though in this case, the "sound" of isn't the problem - it's the behavior that seems oddly different from other FET-modeled compressors. Which is why in most case I ended up replacing it w/ my bundled compressor most of the time. Distortion may or may not be desirable depending on the task at hand, but w/o control over the actual compression, attack and ration, it's just another distortion. 

I make no claim at telling which one is the closest "emulation" but even though BF and CLA were modeled after different units they're similar overall, despite the differences. I doubt very much that losing all control over attack and release is desirable whether it's hardware or software. If a hardware unit reacted like that, my guess is that it'd be because it is malfunctioning, no matter if it's a classic brand.

bapu

Smedberg

batsbrew


my guess is, it's the intention of the designer for the software to react the way it does.

and in the end, it's usefulness on one thing, maybe be diminished on another.
doesn't mean it's not doing what it intended to do, only, that it is the wrong tool for the job.

that's why pro studios, have several flavors of compressors and limiters in hardware.

But one 1176 clone should not be that drasticly different to another clone...

Then why have more than one on the market?

So that Bapu can buy them all?

bitflipper



Personally, I don't understand the obsession with modeled compressors, or for that matter, compressors in general. Or why people feel the need to have so many of them. Give me just one versatile compressor that has all the necessary features and I'm set.

+1

And you can then add whatever shade of colour you like.

Having said that I do already have a few to choose from including an 1176 emu...

bitflipper

But one 1176 clone should not be that drasticly different to another clone...

No two real 1176's sound identical, so for any two software emulations to sound identical, they would have to both be modeled from the same hardware unit.


Personally, I don't understand the obsession with modeled compressors, or for that matter, compressors in general. Or why people feel the need to have so many of them. Give me just one versatile compressor that has all the necessary features and I'm set.

I have never said i want them to be identical, that would be stupid...

I can't comment for everyone. In my case I like to have several compressors because, even though they do the same thing, different models impart different characteristices into the sound and some of those characteristics are more desired than others in any given scenereo. All analog gear colors the sound to some degree and emulations should reasonably convey that coloration closest to the standard true form of the original.

 
 
The latest UAD 1176 Limiter Collection has accurately modeled the entire electronic signal path of (3) specific units, covering a 40 year period. The 1176 Rev A (Bluestrip), 1176LN Rev E (Blackface) & the 1176AE (w/ it's hot rod mods). These are the closest you will get to the actual 1176 hardware that these are modeled from in plug-in form. The sound, behavior and look is so, may I dare say ....... almost like using the actual hardware versions!
 
Check out this 1176 demo video (using 1176's on drum bus) in full screen HD with a decent monitoring system. I swear it is like watching and listening to the real hardware in action! I can't wait to try these babies on my new Apollo QUAD with realtime UAD processing on input. Could be some 1176's may be going on ebay.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FkYUZT1WKrE

Hmmm...lets see here....UAD made the hardware unit originally and now they are making a copy of their gear and it sounds exactly*almost* like the hardware..Go figure....I'm trying to be funny here,not trying to be a SA... but in reality if UAD can't get one close no one can ..LOL!!!

 
Yeah, almost in that you still don't have the touchy feely like you get with an actual hardware unit..... LOL
 

 I'm glad you like your Apollo setup Billy!

 
Well, I don't exactly have it yet.......it is on backorder. JRRShop says I am one of the next in the queue, but they do not know when the next shipments will come in. In the meantime, I am living vicariously through the posts and experiences of those that do have one already! 
 
Cheers,
 
Billy Buck

.UAD made the hardware unit originally

Well, technically it's a replica based on a previously-discontinued product designed in the early 70's, long before the company currently known as UAD existed.