Your technique for MBC - Multi Buss Comp (Brauerizin)

Hi there my worldwide friends...

I decided to post this topic just to find out how you guys make use of this in Sonar...

I use paralel comp a lot in my productions.

My way is, for drums for example... I got my drum mixed to the stereo out... I choose the FXs I think fits the song style, verbs, delays, etc...

I usually use FXs as "send/return" so, they went in individual buses... When I got satisfied with the drum mix I create, then, 3 buses. One I call drm cln (drum clean) another drm comp (drum compressed) and the last one drm full (full drums)

Then I route all the drum channels for DRM CLN... DRM CLN buss have a pre fader send set to 0db to DRM COMP... And both are routed to DRM FULL, wich become my drums master fader. I also route all fx buses related to my drums, wich I never use to wet any other intrument in the mix, to the DRM CLN buss. This prevents me to loose the send/return volume balance after the paralel comp, since everything are being processed equally...

So my DRM CLN is clean, as the name indicates... The DRM COMP is, normally, very compressed (latelly I have been using UADs FATSOsr for it)... I can choose use some EQ in this buss to add more top and bottom end... The mix of this two buses is routed to the DRM FULL buss...And that's basically it...

It is not incommon to my mix process to repeat this same technique in any other group of instruments or voices...

What I feel in Sonar is that, first, this kind of complex routing requires a lot of the program...Is pretty usual to me to have to "stop and play" the project to get buses in sync, wich is really annoying for me... The fact that I use lots of buses, for FX and MBC, turns the buss section gigantic... And is difficult to me to have a good work flow since everything is in the same page... I will use CUBASE as an example here, no offenses... Cubase have the possibility to show/hide the folowing groups/categories:

- Master Input
- Audio Channels
- Midi Channels
- Rewire Channels
- FX Buss (wich is nothing more than dedicated buses for send/return FX)
- Group Buses
- Master Out - wich corresponds to Sonar's master AND main out, so it is not in Group buss category (like it is in Sonar), but have all the features like inserts, EQ, etc...

I know Sonar can show/hide everything too, except Rewire, and Master Input and FX Buss (because it ain't have them)

So, after all this huge post my question is:

- You use MBC? How?
- Did you noticed this sync issue? (Especially when loading plugins with the song playing)
- How is your approach to send/return fx?
- Did you get any uncomfortable with the absence of a FX buss section and/or a master out section (with inserts, etc) separated from buses section?

Thanks for sharing your informations.

Peace.

PS.: This post focus is to find out other members workflow... The comparisons and "complaints" are not intented to create any controversy. 

Middleman


I admire your effort. I tried it but gave up on this approach in the box. The problem is the smearing that compressor plugins provide so all you end up with in the end is an emulation of Michaels approach but not the actual real world results he is getting. The plugins can't duplicate the frequency response of the hardware, plain and simple. This is key because he breaks his groups out, and the selected hardware compressors out, by the part of the frequency spectrum a particular group will control. You are not going to get close to his results because plugins don't work that way. Now, after much experimentation you just might find some plugins that produce results you like, and that is valid for developing maybe your own style, but in the end you can't just run up emulations of the multi buss approach and expect even close results.  

Regarding delays while adding a plugin while the play engine is engaged. Yes, I get this too. You need to stop and start the transport so the delay compensation can refresh.

Regarding approaches to sends/returns, I am now using an approach similar to Dave Pensado. I have many groups such as drum buss, guitars, percussion etc. that come down to four primary groups which are Music, Drums, Vocals, FX. These feed into 2 or more print busses which go out to the mains. I get a better spread of the image this way and more control over the final balance.

I use an FX buss master fed to mains. All inserts out to plugins or external gear happen prior to the FX master which feeds the mains.

I cannot agree more with you... I will not get Michael´s results... That´s 100% true...
 
I am totally resigned... My idea is just adapting Michael´s (and Dave´s) ideas to inna box realitty... 
 
Anyway, to accomplish that, my DAW have to have a very stable buss structure.
 
Thanks for your input Middleman.

Very nice input...

You are using SSL from UAD?

Did you noticed WAVES NLS?

I am trying Sonimus Satson to do the saturation thing, but as a mercury owner will obviously give NLS a try...

What about the UAD A800? Like an A800 in each mixer channel, then the NLS (or sat knob) and then the Neve or SSL... Sounds good?

Still far away from Dave, Michael and company, right? (lol)

John T, I have a template for that but haven't used it in awhile. I have to dig that out and play with it again. What type of music are you using it with?
 
Mauricio, the A800 is on my 4 final groups. Music, Drums, Vocals & FX. I don't have enough horsepower for putting it on tracks although I'd like to try that. Yes I am using the UAD SSL.

Are you asking me? If so, yeah, all ProChannel stuff.

Middleman: well, it started out as a thing ona sort of retro disco, almost Chic-style thing. I wanted to have really clear but still powerful hi hats, like a lot of those records do, and started from there. This track also had some really flamboyant tom rolls in, that were causing all kinds of havoc with just a single bus parallel comp. I think it's applicable to a lot of styles, though there are some cases where the kick drum modulating the hi hats is a nice effect, so maybe you'd have fewer buses. It's actually very good for lighter material. You can really firm up the drum sounds without ending up with a big clangy rock sound.

Regarding which compressors, the last one I did was S type 4k bus for the two low buses, and the PC2A for the high one. But it's not all that delicate an art, really, you're going to be smashing the hell out of these buses. In fact, I think it would maybe be even better with something a bit cruder than those two.

It can be really interesting on purely electronic drums, incidentally. You end up with a sort of fake microphone bleed across the buses. Can really tie it all together.

ProMusic27

... The fact that I use lots of buses, for FX and MBC, turns the buss section gigantic... And is difficult to me to have a good work flow since everything is in the same page... The fact that I use lots of buses, for FX and MBC, turns the buss section gigantic... And is difficult to me to have a good work flow since everything is in the same page

 
Sorry if I'm coming in late and am not seeing the bigger picture but I'm wondering if the Screenset can help here where maybe you would of track views on one and buss views on another.
This is a great thread it has made me rethink what I'm doing.  Thx ProMusic27 and all
 
meh

Nice FBB...(well you are the one with the "I love screenset" signature, don't you? Kkk...

I don't believe this is a horse power issue... Try to send a group of channels to 3 buses and, with the song playing, solo one of them, inset a plugin and unsolo it back... Is everything in sync? 

Thanks for help.

John T


Some plug ins do throw out the sync on insertion yeah. Reverbs tend to be the most con****uous. Fixes itself on stop / start, but it would be nice if it fit it automatically. 

Indeed...


For me, after mix the drums, using plugs on almost all channels (like comp, EQ), send/return verbs for snare, tons, things like that and, then, send them for this 3 buses where:


- Every drum part is sent to buss one ( FX buses included )


- From buss 1 I send (pre-fader) the signal to buss 2


- And both buss 1 and 2 are routed for buss 3 (instead of to the master buss)


So, I play the song, put the buss 1 fader all way down, choose a compressor for buss 2, like PuigChild... Then a Eq, like PuigTec... Tweak it a few... While the song still playing I slide the buss 1 fader back to position... Many times, sync are gone. Have to stop/play again. And it happens a lot during the hole mix process.

FastBikerBoy

ProMusic27


Nice FBB...(well you are the one with the "I love screenset" signature, don't you? Kkk...

I don't believe this is a horse power issue... Try to send a group of channels to 3 buses and, with the song playing, solo one of them, inset a plugin and unsolo it back... Is everything in sync? 

Thanks for help.

I'll try that next time I'm back in the studio. It could just be one of those things that I haven't done in a while or maybe it's happening and I've got so used to stopping and strating playback I don't notice it. I'll let you know either way.

Ok.

FastBikerBoy


Hi again. I've had a chance to try this now. I didn't try every plug but I tried several delays, reverbs, and others but couldn't get it to go out of sync.

I used an existing project to start with and inserted a couple of effects on existing busses. Then I tried with a completely blank one, dragged in a few loops, rolled them out inserted busses with corresponding track sends, soloed one of the busses and started inserting effects on the buss - delay, reverb etc. Couldn't get it to go out of sync either soloed or unsoloed or by changing delay times on the effects themselves.

That isn't a working method I'd normally use. I tend to start with most of my busses already set up with effects as well as tracks with the sends already inserted. (As part of my usual template) I'll then insert any additional sends as I need them.

I definitely used to get sync issues from time to time when switching sends in & out but I haven't had it for quite a while now. I updated my system just before Christmas which I assumed was the reason it stopped but it could just have easily been an update I guess.

Is there any particular combination that seems worse or sets it off?

No, not a particular combination but a circunstance... When I got a group of tracks (like kick, snare top and bot, hi hat, tons, overs) with plenty of compress and eq for each and, then, I route them to that 3 buses and start the paralel process,normaly I'will have sync issues and the need of stop/play the song to re-sync it...


Did you saw my PC specs FBB? It is not a weak machine... I7 2.8, 8Gb ram, I got 1 HD (1Tb Sata) for the system and a RAID 0 (i Believe is 0) with 2 sata HDs (2Tb). Win 7 64...


Maybe the presence of the UAD plataform? This is odd...I am running Cubase in this very same system, and I NEVER had any thing like it... Even in olders versionsof it... But with Sonar, I always had it... And I always had UAD too...

FastBikerBoy


Yeah I see you've plenty of power, not dissimilar to mine.

I don't doubt it's happening it definitely used to happen here but I haven't seen it in a while. In the existing project I was actually using very similar drum tracks to experiment on. Kick, snare top, & snare bottom. They were already routed to a buss for parallel compression as normal, and a reverb buss. I just created an extra buss which is where I started putting the effects on. Mainly delay, reverb, and modulation, thinking they were going to be likeliest candidates for problems.

I had the rest of the songs tracks routed as normal and not going through the extra added buss, I wouldn't have thought that would make much difference though.

I'm more intrigued as to why mine stopped now, I assumed it was my comp hardware upgrade but perhaps it was something else.

I think, maybe, Sonar is jealous because I am running Cubase in the same PC... Lol.


Or maybe this is a matter of luck... Go figure...


Anyway, I do can stop/play songs, this is not the end of the world... But I do prefer not to...


Peace FBB.