I can see it must be damn frustrating for people to encounter persistent bugs when they are using Sonar the way "they" want to use it. 

I only use a small fraction of Sonar's capabilities and I do run into some annoying things myself. The scrub tool has never worked consistently for me- over a variety of computers, sound cards, sonar7 to sonar X1. It always drops out or refuses to scrub backwards like all the other DAWs.

The LP-64 EQ used to crashing when tweaking the nodes in Sonar7. That was annoying but Sonitus was available so like John said about the double click Prochannel flaw we have now- you knew how to stay away from the problem.

Sonar is such an amazing piece of tech already and it still has the potential to improve a lot as well! Exciting times.

I keep thinking about when you used to do things using a 4 track portable recorder...the hissfest in other words. Not that there were people who could use them and get away from hisses but still...

What we have today is far more advanced than that.  So, of course things are going to be a little more sensitive to what you have it running on...

I'm going to be very up front on this. I am pro complaints. Complaints have brought us good new features. The Pause button for one.  What is the real problem is when the complaining is excessive I get very uncomfortable. I see it as an attack and one that has the possibility of causing X1 to be labeled as buggy. This will effect me in that it could cause a reduction in sales which could cause CW to go out of business.

Finding bugs and reporting them is vital yet going out of ones way to post at every opportunity one's dissatisfaction can do great harm to CW and thus to me.

I respect posters that find a bug and ask for confirmation of it from the forum. Then sending a problem report to CW alerting them to the bug. I have no respect with posters droning on about their own selfish needs to vent and belittle CW and X1.  Or other posters that want to help them resolves the problem or find a work around getting attacked for their efforts. 

The above is why I take it personally when the drones drone.


I guess this is a vent too. LOL

John

cyphersuit


I thought X1 was okay, until i tried the Studio One demo yesterday. now i am like: why doesn't cake fix their audio engine to compete with for example S1 but instead create stuff like new pro chanel modules!? I honestly don't get it.

A session with X1: bugs and timing problems.
A session with the S1 demo: no problems at all.

@ cake: fix this!!! 

Interesting! Perhaps you simply haven't run across them yet.

Below is a list if bug fixes in Studio One 2.

The 2.0.5 update fixes the following issues:
• Event FX delay compensation fixed
• Had multiple crossfades when comping within the same time range
• Take selection did not respect event resize
• Folders for Universal Audio UAD plug-in preset-sorting was incorrect
• Problems with missing file dialog
• Wrong event size in Audio parts after changing tempo
• Split Events moved new event to back
• Event FX freeze moved the event out of an Audio part
• Keyboard shortcut for “Remove Track and Instrument” didn’t work
• Audition of moved notes in Editor was not using note velocity
• Layer change while recording created doubled events
• Crashed using audio interfaces with only a mono input (e.g., Apogee One)
• Event FX restore had wrong length
• FX channel was not mapped to bus when “Add Bus for selected channels” was used
• Stretch event state was not saved with Audio loop
• Problem with mute-automation writing on grouped tracks
• Controller recording with VST3 version of VSL plug-in could not be recorded on multiple channels
• Move to Cursor removed shared copy of Instrument part
• Bend marker did not hold position when it was moved toward its original position
• Invisible bend marker was used for Tab to Transients (not used now)
• Old loop range was not restored after auditioning range on a layer
• SFZ files were copied to media folder (now are not copied)
• IR Maker: Displayed wrong default IR Length
• Gate: Release time was not restored
• Impact: Sync mode and transpose issues
• There was no real-time Image Export in Project page
• Save was not enabled when volume was adjusted in Project page
• [Windows®] Sample-rate change was not working correctly for Focusrite Sapphire interfaces
• [Mac® OS X] Dynamics-processing graph had the wrong popup-menu placement on a second monitor screen
• [Mac OS X] Some AU plug-in parameters could not be used with automation
• [Mac OS X] 64-bit VST plug-ins made with JUCE had gray GUI (e.g., Blue Cat Audio or Cytomic Glue)
• [Mac OS X] When restoring Transform event to original, AU plug-in settings were not restored.

Sorry, but that post shows me that you haven't demoed S1 or i didn't make clear enough, what i wanted to say.. 


It's not about the bugs every DAW has, it is about the core, the audio engine. Runs flawlessly in S1, can be a pain in X1 (tried with different machine and windows versions).

Yeah, I was thinking that. Bit of a "these shoelaces suck, I can't get them tied at all" complaint there.

John T


Yeah, I was thinking that. Bit of a "these shoelaces suck, I can't get them tied at all" complaint there.

Cyphersuit's posts are a prime example of why :

1) anecdotal evidence is only as useful as your trust in the individual the anecdote comes from
2) a person who is determined ot be right will simply alter the the convo slightly when faced with a kink in their argument

I work in a field that requires a lot of different media software and I find whenever someone has made up their mind program A is superior to program B they will latch on to it religiously.  I'm sure Studio One is great.  i have tried the Demo and i just installed the free version at work for ****s and grins (who came up with that expression?). It seemed ok enough but it also crashed on me repeatedly.  User results may vary.  I'm certainly not going to take my experience to mean that is the norm for all users.

I don't think it does anything especially remarkable, though.

 
I dunno...  The ARA integration with Melodyne is really nice.   I haven't used Melodyne in SONAR since.   In fact, I upgraded from Melodyne Essentials to Editor for that reason.   Well, and because it was a decent price.  
 
And although I don't have the latest patch yet, the new Macro feature looks pretty cool too.
 
But as for the basics, I definitely find it "different" rather than "better".  Particularly when it comes to MIDI where SONAR is just much more comfortable for me.  Even something like automation, which seems very stable in S1, is different enough that I have to force my way thru every time.  Reasons why SONAR is still my primary DAW...  Except when audio tuning or timing is needed. 
 

Somebody somewhere is seething right now, Jind.

strikinglyhandsome1


Surely the people on GS put him right. They know everything and then some.

Yeah people on GS know everything[noooo!!!!],only because at any one time there are thousands of people using the site at any one time [6660 right now,11499 two days ago]so hopefully, more means better[although we know that it often means more ignorance at times]


They tried,but apparently he still keeps only getting an export of the MIDI track,"without" the deleted silence.


This is the thread anyway http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/720112-export-midi-sonar-x1.html


Bob

Thanks for all the posts,  everyone.  A lot of what you've said is along the lines I was thinking.  I have used Cakewalk since before Sonar, and have always been able to get things done, though I've always dealt with a number of issues and bugs along the way.  Obviously, I have not been inspired to move away from Sonar In fact, I normally have to stop and think if asked to name the bugs I have experienced - after I've gotten around them, there isn't any point thinking much about them anymore, for me.  I did experience one last week, though - my meters kept dying on me, and I couldn't see record levels no matter what I clicked. But I figured it out.

Anyway after I read everything you guys said (and it was some great stuff), I basically boiled it all down into the 3 P's - Perspective, Persistence, and Purpose.   

Perspective is about expectations and experience.  The more people have worked with Sonar and/or music production in general, the more they seem able to get things done with sonar, and I'd daresay anything else as well.  People with analog production experience are generally fine - everything in the analog world for most of us was a workaround of some kind, compared to the modern DAW.  It wasn't called engineering for nothing, as someone has already pointed out in another thread.  Having dealt with 4- and 8-track tape, honestly, I'm still a little bit of kid-in-the-candy-store with my digital setup.

Not that I'm not digital as hell:  Software gigs have payed a lot of bills, writing drivers and such even.  And that seems to be something else that helps - computer proficiency, as in the ability troubleshoot your own problems away. Folks who can do that aren't the ones complaining here. Actually, they're usually the ones helping the rest of us...

Music skills help too. All in all, perspective is matter of having a sense of what you're doing and whether through intuition or conscious intent, avoiding the kinds of things people often get into as they try to do stuff that just isn't realistic, kinda like the engineering equivalent of programming a midi drum part that a human doesn't have enough limbs to ever really play....

Persistence is, well, persisting.  If you have the perspective to understand there's a way to accomplish what you're trying to do, then with some stubbornness , you can usually find a series of steps for getting it done, though it may not be exactly as the manual described    One thing I've found is that this is usually a fabulous learning exercise: first I have to really think through what I'm doing, and more than once I've realized that it wasn't even what I needed to start with, then you pick up all kinds of little tidbits as you try this and that to get something working. Stick with it, it's worth it...

Purpose is really about computers.  PC's might have been a better P-word here.  One thing that is just critical to Sonar success is having a computer that is 1) up to the task at hand, and 2) dedicated to same.  This means a high-end desktop that is dedicated to music production and used rarely if ever for anything else.  Personally, I don't have the latest I7 setup, but I have custom built 3Ghz quad-core that rarely even gets warm.  But I don't run anything else on it aside from DAW stuff. There's no antivirus, no MS Office, no games, no nothing. And most importantly it is never connected the internet. I have another machine in the studio for that, right next to it, with some USB drives for one-stop download-n-xfer.  Also, I try hard not to run configurations inside Sonar that would be unrealistic in an analog studio.  And if I'm running VST instruments, I run one at a time, freezing or bouncing down the others.  Personally, when I see folks post that are having problems running EZ-Drummer on one track and z3ta+ on another, I think, well, that is the problem.  And some of the more intensive Fx plugs can fall in the same category.  That's what UAD is for, though. But that's just me...

Somebody no doubt noticed that I didn't include laptops in that last paragraph.  You're right.  I didn't.  I use one a lot, but almost always for remote recording.  I don't expect it to have the drive speed, video acceleration, bus bandwidth and such to dub or mix on. If you want a reliable laptop DAW, you can hardly even get in the market for the price of the best desktop, IMO.  Mine, by the way, is an old T42 that came souped up from the factory with a 7200 drive.  It isn't about horsepower, It's about purpose, and understanding what yours is.

I almost included a fourth 'P' - Pissiness, on account of the threads that go ballistic with with people complaining about their problems.  While I agree with John that bashing Cake is generally unproductive, I draw the line differently than he does, I guess.  In one sense, we are the core of Cake's user base - the most serious of the flagship products' users.  Our opinion matters. But there's a difference between a guy popping on here for the first time and carrying on about what a POS Sonar is when they don't really know what they're doing at all, and long-time users and members of this forum pointing out that Sonar has some issues apparently elated to the development process at Cakewalk, things that one could not exactly file a reproducible bug report about but that reflect a concern about the overall vision, priorities, and execution of the software business in Boston. If they don't hear this here, where else will they hear it? From the folks in house? Come on. How many times have the people who made the decisions where you worked taken it to heart when you told them they were screwing up?  When paying customers who also know what they're talking about chime in, it's at least a little more weight.  So to me, some complaining is good, and some kinds of complaining in particular.  Some of it, though,  is just a reflection of the users relative ignorance - particularly of the three P's - and isn't all that useful unless it makes you feel better.

Which sometimes is the case, and I personally don't mind somebody having a full-on tantrum, as long they don't do it every time they shoot themselves in the foot and want to blame somebody else.  Every now and then is cool, though - gives you that passionate artist thing. But you gotta really throw down hard....

Really, that's the key, blaming, and I could have just about said all of the above with just this: if you approach your problems by thinking first that its your fault and then that maybe its nobody's, you'll get on a lot better.  Yeah, it is Cake's fault that Sonar does some of the things it does. But really, it's usually my fault when I can't get something worked out that'll get me where I need to be. 

And I really appreciate the help you guys here have given me along the way, though a lot of times it's come to me through answers you've given other people.  Please keep it up.

Cheers, everyone....