Recording Meters

I find Sonar's meters are fine for the job.

I only keep an eye on the peaks during Tracking.

Mixing is different.

Okay you guys, thanks, but I'm confused. I have been using peak metering to record and it seems fine, but if I record an acoustic guitar, bass guitar, electric guitar, and hand percussion, all peaking at -12 dBFS, I would guess their RMS values would be different, which is what I understand I should be concerned with during mixing ... right? 

I guess, once I get things recorded, I "line up" the RMS values, mostly by ear, keeping an eye on the peak values in the Master bus. 

A few of you may notice I'm going round and round with this issue, thanks for your patient input, this is how I learn. I was the one in that was always slowing the class with a gazillion questions.

Sam

Unless you're recording through outboard compressors, I don't believe you can affect the RMS going in to Sonar.

I use both meter modes. I display peaks and rms on all the meters. It seems to me that using both helps monitor how much compression I'm getting on a track. Generally speaking, the smaller the gap between peaks and rms, the more compression. I don't know if this is true, but it works for me.

A big reason people don't use RMS meters in the recording chain is that _digital_ recording is completely unforgiving at 0 dBFS. And when you're recording, you never know when a big burst of sound will push the signal into clipping.

Back in the tape days, VU meters were just fine for recording, since tape is much more forgiving about clipping. It clips much more gently than digital. Even though analog peak meters were used, VU meters were also used very effectively (and in many places, exclusively) when recording in the analog days.

Personally, I like using Sonar's combo RMS/Peak meters when recording. I think that's a perfectly legitimate way to go. Just make sure your signal never goes above 0 dBFS when recording (use the peak meter), and use the RMS meters as you like.

Sam you have nailed it when you said if we use the peak meters and keep peak levels constant then the rms values underneath are all going to be different. That is correct. That is where many go wrong. Then they wonder why a certain track has no level during a mix. It is dumb actually to keep peak levels constant because then the rms levels are varying too much.

The whole concept behind the K system is to keep rms values constant and don't worry about peaks, they simply take care of themselves and if you are doing this down at a good K ref level eg K-20 then you don't have to worry because the peaks will rarely break through to 0 dB FS. What is great about it is we are taking an older concept from the analog days and bringing it over to digital. It worked for analog so it can also work perfectly for digital too.

You have got the Klanghelm meters now so use them during tracking as well as mixing. So simply enable them when you are adjusting the incoming level you are about to record. Nearly all types of input signal will drive a VU meter perfectly so simply adjust your input gain so the VU meter is just showing 0 dB VU. The only types of signals that are harder to monitor with a VU are snares and maybe kicks and very short percussive sounds so then you use your peak metering instead. It is not one or the other, it is both together that works really well.

Most DAW rms meters are useless because they are hovering around some very low value and are way too hard to read hence the reason why we have something that is showing a FSD at our ref level is much easier to see.

You don't need to sweat peaks because if you adjust your VU to show FSD on recording then you know you have got all that headroom above. Just be aware though that as you raise the K system ref level eg K-14 or K-12 then you have to watch more closely what your peaks are up to because they might just come up high enough to punch through 0bB FS. In these situations it is sometimes necessary to use outboard gear to contain the peaks slightly on the way in eg a quality limiter etc. You end up with up louder tracks all round and a louder mix at the end of the day though, making mastering a little easier in terms of getting very loud masters.

Where I teach sound engineering we have just bought a new SSL AWS948 mixing console (close to $100,000!) We are doing a course today on that mixer from some guy out from the UK. I have watched all the videos and downloaded the manual in prep etc. Interesting in that is equipped with real VU meters and they suggest using them to set rms levels incoming during recording. It is not K system set other than the ref levels are -24, -22, -20 and -18. So K-20 could be adopted as a ref level in this case. Basically they are suggesting doing it exactly the way I have described. They are not wrong and I don't think I am either. The incoming channel metering can also be put into VU mode and will be probably able to be set such as they are showing 0dB VU on the incoming reference level as well.

Hi MondoArt - 

I see what what you're saying but I'm really wanting to control the average level of one instrument in relation to the average level of another instrument, while maintaining the original (or close to it) differences between average levels and peaks. Maybe I used the term "loudness" when I should have said "level" ??? 

Thanks !

That is good advice from John It is one thing to keep individual tracks at a correct rms level but another to keep a whole buss or master buss also at the same ref level. When you are mixing say a whole group of tracks into a buss then it is essential to also keep the total rms level the same as the tracks. And this obviously means adding tracks together but lowering the tracks obviously as a group in order to achieve it. It is so easy to keep adding things into a buss and before long you are way over your ref level.

A great mix strategy is what is too loud and what can I bring down rather than what can I turn up to match this or that.

Pulling things down is a great way to achieve keeping things at a chosen ref level. Quick grouping tracks and pulling down several tracks at once is also a good strategy. With care you can still end up with the exact mix you are after and your total level hitting a buss or masterbuss is still around the chosen ref level.

This is all easier if you are tracking at correct and even rms levels for individual tracks and VU meters can really help you do this.

And if you mix is right but the total level is starting to go slightly over your ref level then you can quick group everything and bring everything down still leaving your buss or masterbuss faders at unity gain.

You have to also keep putting your room monitor level up to compensate any time you drop any levels down as well. Important, otherwise you will feel your mixes are loosing power when in fact they are not you are just keeping levels down at the chosen ref level all the time.