The basics- Post vs Pre -confusion over methods

There should be no difference in quality.

The PC can be placed before or after the FX bin, so that you can apply serial effects differently - say a high pass filter in the FX chain before the PC compressor followed by the PC EQ or serially compressing - a fast 1176 comp followed by a slower LA2A comp.

The pre/post send is analogus to an analog board where you could switch the sends pre/post for sending headphone outputs from a pre send to get a different balance than the signal going to tape through the fader.  Or you can put the sends into "post" to a reverb and have the reverb send follow the master level so as you fade out you don't have tons of reverb washing out the songs end.

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There should be no difference in quality.

The PC can be placed before or after the FX bin, so that you can apply serial effects differently - say a high pass filter in the FX chain before the PC compressor followed by the PC EQ or serially compressing - a fast 1176 comp followed by a slower LA2A comp.

The pre/post send is analogus to an analog board where you could switch the sends pre/post for sending headphone outputs from a pre send to get a different balance than the signal going to tape through the fader.  Or you can put the sends into "post" to a reverb and have the reverb send follow the master level so as you fade out you don't have tons of reverb washing out the songs end.

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Ok this helps a bit I think, thanks.
Tho I admit I don't understand how this works -
" Or you can put the sends into "post" to a reverb and have the reverb send follow the master level "
Is this the Track FX Send to the reverb bus then to the Master bus?  
It would undoubtedly be easier if one knows what one wants to do with various FX in the first place and how to get there.
At this stage I'm reacting to sounds rather than pro-acting. 
IOW I'm still experimenting with FX options not really knowing how to get the right sound. 
EG a typical approach
Try a PC preset..does it sound better? Sorta but not right yet. Tweak a few of those settings. 
Better but still not right, Maybe fix that with the FX bin. Add some more EQ, hmm sounds a bit quiet now.
So maybe a compressor to crank it up? 
Hmm maybe I need to buy some magic plugin that everyone is raving about.


So to start, it's likely I'm not tweaking the FX properly or in the right order and that's why the Post and Pre don't make sense.


I'm not running a studio for others so elaborate sends to musicians with different mixes is not an issue.


Would I assume as a beginner I would just "Post" everything right thru the busses to the master until I get more experience with FX?
(change in subject deleted to place in separate post)

Tho I admit I don't understand how this works -
" Or you can put the sends into "post" to a reverb and have the reverb send follow the master level "
Is this the Track FX Send to the reverb bus then to the Master bus? 

That is in reference to buss sends on tracks (or busses for that matter). In "Post" mode any adjustments made to the track fader affects the level that is being sent from the send(s).

That is usually desirable with effects. For example if you have a send to a reverb buss with nice level of reverb set up when you turn that tracks fader down you will usually want the level of reverb volume to reduce in line with the dry track sound. That is what happens in "Post" mode.

If however you had the same scenario in "Pre" mode as you reduce the track 'dry' volume the reverb level won't reduce and in the extreme you could turn the track volume down completely but still hear the reverb, because the level going to that buss via the send is not affected by the track fader.

That can also be used to your advantage such as in the case of headphone mixes as mentioned above or possibly some sort of special effect where you only want the affected sound in the mix.

Hope that makes sense.

Glen,

Just about every fx effect will need post send.

Just about every headphone mix will need pre.

It is that simple.

As far as "line" effect (ie ProChannel) that mostly consist of comps, eq and limiters/gates, it is easy in these digital days to slap one of everything on a track and hope it makes the sound better.  What I've found is that this is often not the case.  Unless you have a reason to use a tool, it is better to leave it in the case.  Of course, this does not apply to learning the damn things - if you can't twist a few knobs you'll never figure them out!

So open up some time and spend it doing testing w/ comps etc.  EQ is pretty easy to figure out - but like everything takes time to learn when it needs to be used.  So the idea is to use as little eq as possible to get the job done.  Unless you are trying to get aquainted with frequencies, lestest is bestest.  Probably the most useful EQ facet is filters, which filter out lows and highs.  You can get rid of a lot of extraneous noise in the bass you don't even know is there if you record mics.  That just eats up bandwidth w/o adding anything to the sound.  I find I can exentuate a sound, not by boosting the eq but filtering out frequencies above and below the main energy of the sound.

compression is really funky and it is very easy to damage the sound until you know what you are doing.  Think of compression as lowering the maximum volume in relationship to the lowest part of the sound.  So you actually have a smaller dynamic range but
make up gain raises the entire sound volume.  A compressor is a kind of automatic volume rider.  A good application for this is in vocals that go from a (loud) whisper to a very loud yell.  mixing this in w/ volume automation to a typical rock song means the levels of the softer vocals dissapear into the song while the louder parts are fine.  Volume automation helps, but to get the vol levels to "float" over the song (and without putting in long anal hours of automation) slap a compressor on it.  If you do some rough automation first, the comp will have an easier time working and sound more natural.

By the same token, a distorted, fuzzy guitar is already compressed to an extent by the speaker cabinet.  Instead of the volume shown on the meters going from -1 db to -30 db like the vocal, it goes from -6 to almost unaudible at -16.  Slapping a compressor on it will many times just make it sound smaller, not bigger like the voice.  I know - I messed w/ such guitars enough and usually damage the sound (they are also bandwidth limited by the cabinet and turning up the eq usually just makes them sound noisier or just bad).

One trick is to apply an effect and then back off it until you don't hear it anymore. Then switch it in and out. Hopefully you can hear the difference then. This is pretty SOP for vox reverb, but works on other effects too.
The above are some uses (or an example of a no-no).  Take the time to get familiar how compression sounds and what you like it on.  Some of engineering is science and yes/no logic, but the sound you like is the art part.  Find it and use it and that becomes your distincitive sound production style.

Glen,

maybe look up some signal flow charts from analog mixer manufacturers.  You should find them on the web.  SONAR doesn't exactly follow the hardware convention.  But a Send is just a bus with an amount knob on it per channel to route varying amounts of signal while the track the send is on also goes to a bus.  You tap off some of the signal, like a splitter.  If you wanted to use an overall reverb you would send it (most likely post) from several tracks to your reverb bus, adjusting the amount of reverb from the send knob.  On the reverb bus your effect would be set to 100% wet.  This reverb bus would then be routed back to the master.

But say you have several backing vocals and you want it really reverby and lush and motown style (or any 60s pop).  Instead of using a send, you route each BV track to a separate bus so the tracks don[t go through the master output.  On this bus you insert a plate reverb and crank the wet ratio up so each vocal track is washed out but the ratio of voice to voice is the same as you set your faders.  Now this reveb is sent to the master and you can control the overall backing vox w/ reverb from the fader.

There are many ways to do the same thing in SONAR, but that is the way analog boards used to work and is a good method to think of things - which is why board makers use the same basic features.  The signal comes in from the top and flows down through the channel.  You can tap it from a send so you have more than one signal flowing from a single input or you can just let it run downhill to the fader effecting it along the way w/ the PC or FX bin.   Learn to use that method and then you can break the rules when needing something special.

A board usually has (top to bottom)

Input gain
inserts (for patching in comps etc. inline w/ the channel)
Eq (sometimes this can be switched after the sends)
sends - pre fader and post fader switchable
pan
buses
output fader

Since sonar is digital it ain't bound up by wires - it is modules that can be switched around.  But just think of signal flow as above you and you are good to go for most situations.  You might also just look at some bigger mixers faceplates.


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