Can X1 do midi learn on effects?

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Gonga
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2012/05/08 21:32:08 (permalink)

Can X1 do midi learn on effects?

Hi folks.  I can't get the midi learn functions to work on my vst effects, such as U-He Uhbik.  Does SONAR support midi learn for midi vst effect plugs?  Thanks
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    FastBikerBoy
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    Re:Can X1 do midi learn on effects? 2012/05/09 01:56:39 (permalink)
    Have a look at ACT. That's an easy way to control VSTs via a controller. The 'learning' is done via the ACT properties box (ACT learn) which is probably already mapped to your controller, but if it isn't can be set up using MIDI learn.

    See this video for more info.
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    Gonga
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    Re:Can X1 do midi learn on effects? 2012/05/09 03:31:29 (permalink)
    Thanks for your reply, but ACT doesn't work, and it's like using a bazooka to kill a fly.  I'm using an A-300Pro and I want to use the right-click midi learn function in the vst software.  It works fine for my synth vsts, but not a single effect insert will pick up midi learns when I try to use the vst's right-click midi learn.  Is there any way I can use my expression pedal as a controller for wah-wah for example?  I just want to be able to assign at most 2 or 3 cc controls to a mod wheel or pedal, that's all!  I don't see any way to do that with effect vsts.  I don't see how ACT can help, it just seems to interfere with basic things.  I also see no way to assign cc's to the mod wheel even if I do use ACT.
    post edited by Gonga - 2012/05/09 03:37:42
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    FastBikerBoy
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    Re:Can X1 do midi learn on effects? 2012/05/09 03:54:31 (permalink)
    When you say ACT doesn't work what do you mean? You've tried it and it won't do what you want or is that a general observation? I don't know what you mean by the bazooka/fly comment, it's the easiest way to do it AFAIK.

    ACT should be capable of that control especially with an A-300. Did you watch the video I linked to? You need to have ACT enabled in the controllers properties. Any VST that has focus should then automatically be mapped to the A-300s controls although you may need to edit the mapping to suit yourself.

    To send cc data from the Mod wheel you'll need to assign the message you want to send from the A-PRO first. I'm working from memory so can't remember whether the mod wheel is assignable via ACT or not, but that's only one control. ACT can be used in conjunction with other control methods.

    I use ACT & the generic surface for various elements of my ZED-R16 MIDI control surface section for example.
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    Gonga
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    Re:Can X1 do midi learn on effects? 2012/05/09 04:12:15 (permalink)
    Thank you for your time.  I can't use the right-click midi learn function in any of my effects vsts (that is possible in other DAWS).  And when I open the A-300 in ACT, there's no way to assign the mod wheel or expression pedal.  I've seen every video out there including this one and the commercial in-depth ones.  None explain how to do what takes 2 seconds (right-click midi learn move fader) in other DAWS.  Midi learn works for synth vsts but not effects?  Also, when I open the editor window for the A-Pro, I can't change any of the settings - functions are pre-assigned and you can't change which knob controls each cc.  I would have to start from scratch, which isn't worth doing since I still can't use my important performance controllers (mod and expression) anyway.
     
    The design appears to overlook important basic functions, is not user-friendly (AKA "intuitive") and is poorly documented.
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    FastBikerBoy
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    Re:Can X1 do midi learn on effects? 2012/05/09 04:17:03 (permalink)
    That's exactly what my video explains. How to MIDI learn a control to ACT & then ACT learn the parameter you want. Also how to remap the controls if they aren't assigned how you want them. There's no need to save the assigns once you've made them they are automatically loaded each time.

    I haven't tried it but I can't think of a reason why the MOD wheel won't map to one of the ACT cells. Click on a cell until it changes to "MIDI learn..." and then move the Mod wheel, that's it.

    I'll try it with my PCR later but it should work.


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    cliffr
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    Re:Can X1 do midi learn on effects? 2012/05/09 04:18:41 (permalink)
    If I'm right, it may be just the case of you need to configure your "Audio Effect" as a synth in the plugin properties.
    Then it will appear on the right selection lists for Input/Output as Synth,  so then assign a MIDI track/IN/Out and away you go.

    Not at my DAW right now, but something like this ...
    Open the Sonar plugin manager, and pick the VST Effect from the list of effects, click on properties, and check the "Configure as Synth" box (configure as tempo based effect unchecks). Click OK, then your VST should show up (in plugin manager and the insert menu) under the list of Synths/Instruments.

    So now you should be able to right click in the FX Bin, and choose that VST under the list of Synths, rather than as "Audio Effect".

    Now, insert a MIDI track, and assign the output to the "Now Available" Synth (audio effect).
    Set MIDI in and enable Input Echo on the MIDI track and you should be good to MIDI Learn.

    If that's not it ... I was wrong :-)


    Cheers - Cliff

    i7-950 24 GB, GTX 580, W7/64 Ultimate, Sonar Platinum, Alesis MasterControl, KRK Rokit RP8g2s
    Some Real piano, basses, and guitars, Komplete 8Ultimate, Ibanez guitars, MusicLab RG/Strat/LPC, Trilian, Omnisphere, RMX, EWQL SO Platinum, Pianos, Choirs, VOP, Gypsy, Goliath, SD2, MOR, Ra, HS, HB, too many plugs, Midi controllers, and all kinds of weird gadgets
    My Soundclick Page 
    #7
    Gonga
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    Re:Can X1 do midi learn on effects? 2012/05/09 11:38:54 (permalink)
    Thanks to both of you.  I will look into both of these.  I'll try the SONAR solution first.  If I do have to use ACT, I'll have to start from scratch (with a Cakewalk controller!) in order to map the most important controls.  Sheesh!
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    Fog
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    Re:Can X1 do midi learn on effects? 2012/05/09 12:57:22 (permalink)
    midi learn does work in sonar, on various things (assuming the fx , instruments support it) .. most makers normally stick with the right click, convention on the button.. but I don't use it with a cake controller.. so can't say

    on my nocturn it has a virtual midi port, does the cakewalk unit also have the same or need it?

    there is a few modes on that keyboard? and well it's made to work on all sequencers..  perhaps have a look in the manual to see how it deals with CC's..

    have you contacted U-He also? their support is very good.. not sure if they test with sonar also.


    #9
    Gonga
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    Re:Can X1 do midi learn on effects? 2012/05/09 13:01:38 (permalink)
    Cliff, that worked.  I set up the effect (Uhbik Runciter configured as Joe Zawinul's Wah Wah) as a synth.  I opened a midi track, set the input to the same keyboard controller, and the output to the Runciter.  When the softsynth track is selected the Runciter doesn't work, so you have to select the softsynth track and double-click the effect to open it, then switch to highlight the midi track, then you can midi learn the control, in this case, cutoff frequency of a combination band and low pass filter (wah wah).  Ridiculously complex, and yet another example of how things are moving toward programmers who move mice and turn knobs, and away from players who need quick ways to control their wheels, joysticks and pedals on their instruments that just work the same way every time.
     
    Thanks to you both, you've made my day!  I can go back to working on a Nubian Sundance-inspired tune...
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    Gonga
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    Re:Can X1 do midi learn on effects? 2012/05/09 14:10:16 (permalink)
    Hi Fog, SONAR allows right-click to work with vst synths but not effects.  So you have to configure the effect as a synth and put it on a separate midi track.  To use the effect later as an effect you havre to reverse this setting, so I'm not sure how it works with multiple instances of an effect in both effect and synth mode...unnecessarily complicated I think.  SONAR's documentation for ACT that came with my A-300 Pro is among the worst I've ever seen.  And their videos are awful.  If it weren't for great folks like you and FastBikerBoy (great video), guys like me'd be in a heap o' trouble!
    post edited by Gonga - 2012/05/09 14:17:58
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    Fog
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    Re:Can X1 do midi learn on effects? 2012/05/09 14:43:19 (permalink)
    but because the a-300 pro is designed for everything else as well.. I bet it's got what the normal "CC" sending that your looking for.. how did you get on with ACT learn instead ? that is pretty painless for certain keyboards..  moreso for own brand.

    I dunno if this helps at all

    http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2070124&mpage=1&

    have you looked at the roland site and also the contol plugin for it ?

    http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/kb/reader.aspx/2007012938#


    #12
    cliffr
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    Re:Can X1 do midi learn on effects? 2012/05/09 19:36:45 (permalink)
    Gonga


    Cliff, that worked.  I set up the effect (Uhbik Runciter configured as Joe Zawinul's Wah Wah) as a synth.  I opened a midi track, set the input to the same keyboard controller, and the output to the Runciter.  When the softsynth track is selected the Runciter doesn't work, so you have to select the softsynth track and double-click the effect to open it, then switch to highlight the midi track, then you can midi learn the control, in this case, cutoff frequency of a combination band and low pass filter (wah wah).  Ridiculously complex, and yet another example of how things are moving toward programmers who move mice and turn knobs, and away from players who need quick ways to control their wheels, joysticks and pedals on their instruments that just work the same way every time.
     
    Thanks to you both, you've made my day!  I can go back to working on a Nubian Sundance-inspired tune...
     
    Hi Dan,
     
    glad that worked out for you.  It's definitely seems to be one of the craziest things in Sonar, having to configure effects as a synth to send it MIDI data.
    MIDI control of "Audio Effects" just seems such an obvious thing, but it's certainly NOT obvious how to do it in Sonar.
     
    I only found out by coming to this forum - if it weren't for this forum, I think it would be a nightmare trying to work out how to get some things done in Sonar.
     
    MIDI control of "Audio Effects" seems like a good idea for a feature request to me.
    I'm going to put in a feature request as soon as I get back home tonight.
     
     
    Cheers - Cliff

    i7-950 24 GB, GTX 580, W7/64 Ultimate, Sonar Platinum, Alesis MasterControl, KRK Rokit RP8g2s
    Some Real piano, basses, and guitars, Komplete 8Ultimate, Ibanez guitars, MusicLab RG/Strat/LPC, Trilian, Omnisphere, RMX, EWQL SO Platinum, Pianos, Choirs, VOP, Gypsy, Goliath, SD2, MOR, Ra, HS, HB, too many plugs, Midi controllers, and all kinds of weird gadgets
    My Soundclick Page 
    #13
    Gonga
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    Re:Can X1 do midi learn on effects? 2012/05/09 19:48:40 (permalink)
    We're in complete agreement Cliff.
     
    Fog, I'm avoiding ACT (or using the sliders and knobs on my A-300Pro) altogether.  I find the sliders and knobs nearly useless for mixing because they always seem to jump values and produce audio glitches no matter how I set them up, which totally sux but that's what happens.  So I still use the mouse for mixing.  Then I just need to set up a few cc's to my mod wheels, touch pads and pedals to play in parts.  I play in most of my parts the old fashioned way.  SOANR makes it nearly impossible to do this most important and basic stuff.  Another thing that really aggravates me is how SONAR interferes with entering text into some vsts when naming presets.  I'm trying to type in text and SONAR is interpreting this as keystrokes to open windows.  There's no way to change this behavior.  Cakewalk has never fixed it - they just tell me to work around it by cutting and pasting text - can you believe it?  I thought for sure they'd issue a fix.  I'm a long-time user but every day I get closer to looking for another DAW.  I might go with a basic cheap or even free one that just takes care of simple needs simply, because that's what I need.  SONAR actually interferes with my workflow, which makes it a poor value in spite of the bells and whistles.
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