razor
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Need Suggestions for Making Drum Loops More Punchy
Hey All-- It's been a while since I've checked in. Things are going well for me and my recording. I have some George Pendergast drum loops that I really like but placed against the other instruments in my track they sound kind of --dull. They are 44.1 /16-bit and everything else is being recorded in 96/24 (later to be dithered to red book). The cymbals I'm using are from a soft synth and sound crisp--so it's just the drums need to sound crisper--punchier. I've got some plug-ins I can experiment with but wondered if anyone here already has found a good solution to dull drums? Hey--thanks! sd
Stephen Davis Cakewalk by Bandlab Windows 7 Pro 64-Bit ADK DAW - (out of business 2018) Intel i7 4930K CPU Core i7 SB-E MOBO 16 GB DDR3 RAM 7 TB Storage Layla 3G SoundCard (11.5 ms Roundtrip Latency) UAD-2 DSP WaveLab 8 Pro 64-bit Sound Forge 10 Pro
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Ace.trouble
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Re:Need Suggestions for Making Drum Loops More Punchy
2012/05/12 11:47:03
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I use Native Instruments' "Battery 3" plugin for drums. On the bass drum and snare track I insert the Steinberg WaveLab "puncher" effect, which kinda does what the name suggests  A subtle amount of reverb on the snare and hi-hat does the trick for me, too. And if I'm really crazy (  ) I use a Maximizer on all drum elements, bumping up the threshold. I don't know about "George Pendercast" drum loops, but like any drum sampler I know it should have velocity and humanize features. Try messing with that as well, if you haven't already. Also, you do have the various drum elements routed to separate output channels and panned individually, right? Kind regards
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razor
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Re:Need Suggestions for Making Drum Loops More Punchy
2012/05/12 16:37:21
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Ace.trouble I use Native Instruments' "Battery 3" plugin for drums. On the bass drum and snare track I insert the Steinberg WaveLab "puncher" effect, which kinda does what the name suggests A subtle amount of reverb on the snare and hi-hat does the trick for me, too. And if I'm really crazy ( ) I use a Maximizer on all drum elements, bumping up the threshold. I don't know about "George Pendercast" drum loops, but like any drum sampler I know it should have velocity and humanize features. Try messing with that as well, if you haven't already. Also, you do have the various drum elements routed to separate output channels and panned individually, right? Kind regards Hey, thanks. I have Wave Lab, but an older version, so I'll have to check my DAW if it has punchier--although that does sound familiar. I gave up my Sonic Maximizer plug-in if that's what you're referring to. I found I had more control if I set the EQs manually. I'll try the punchier setting. Thanks again!
Stephen Davis Cakewalk by Bandlab Windows 7 Pro 64-Bit ADK DAW - (out of business 2018) Intel i7 4930K CPU Core i7 SB-E MOBO 16 GB DDR3 RAM 7 TB Storage Layla 3G SoundCard (11.5 ms Roundtrip Latency) UAD-2 DSP WaveLab 8 Pro 64-bit Sound Forge 10 Pro
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Ace.trouble
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Re:Need Suggestions for Making Drum Loops More Punchy
2012/05/12 16:51:02
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You're welcome! Oh no, I was actually referring to the "L2 Ultramaximizer" Peak Limiter Plugin made by "Waves". I use this to make the signal louder (via compression) while adjusting the output level to -0.2dB, so I don't get clipping. The "Waves" bundle that includes the "L2 Ultramaximizer" is actually pretty expensive. But I'm sure there are lots of more affordable - or even free - plugins that do the same trick (albeit probably not delivering the same quality sound). Does the Sonic Maximizer do the same thing, 'cause I haven't used it.
post edited by Ace.trouble - 2012/05/12 16:52:22
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razor
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Re:Need Suggestions for Making Drum Loops More Punchy
2012/05/12 22:21:11
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Ace.trouble You're welcome! Oh no, I was actually referring to the "L2 Ultramaximizer" Peak Limiter Plugin made by "Waves". I use this to make the signal louder (via compression) while adjusting the output level to -0.2dB, so I don't get clipping. The "Waves" bundle that includes the "L2 Ultramaximizer" is actually pretty expensive. But I'm sure there are lots of more affordable - or even free - plugins that do the same trick (albeit probably not delivering the same quality sound). Does the Sonic Maximizer do the same thing, 'cause I haven't used it. The Sonic Maximizer was an outboard unit that colored the output of a audio signal and I have to say it did sound better. Later they made a plug-in version and the best way I can describe it is a device, or plug-in, that has a series of common EQs--so you don't have to do it manually. I found the plug-in version did not have a quality output and as I said, I could do better manually setting the EQ. Here's some info on it from BBE's site: http://www.bbesound.com/products/sonic-maximizers/default.aspx
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bitflipper
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Re:Need Suggestions for Making Drum Loops More Punchy
2012/05/13 00:52:22
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I've recently started using the Waves TransX plugin, mostly on drums. By exaggerating transients, it adds punch and definition to snares, kick and toms. Overdone, it makes them sound "ticky", but when used appropriately it can definitely liven a drum track. I've only used it on live tracks, but I have to imagine it would work just as well on canned loops. A similar approach would be to use a transient/envelope shaper. You might take a look at Stillwell's Transient Monster, which looks interesting but I haven't actually tried it yet. Another one on my list to test drive is the Schaak Audio Transient Shaper. There's also the old standby Dominion from DigitalFishPhones, which isn't bad for a freebie. And of course, there's the Transient Shaper plugin that comes bundled with SONAR; the best you can say about that one is you already have it. Another trick for livening drums is parallel distortion. My favorite plugin for that is D16's Redopter (although I'd love to have FabFilter's Saturn if it wasn't so expensive) but I've also used Guitar Rig and Voxengo Boogex (a freebie). I usually run just snare and toms to a distortion bus. If your loops can't be split out into individual instruments it'll still work but you'll have to be more conservative with your settings because distortion can make bass drums sound thin and cymbals grainy. But on snares and toms, it works great. Try automating the distortion bus to bring up the distortion on the chorus, and lower it on verses. It's also an interesting effect for handclaps, congas and other percussion. A less-intense version of distortion is a harmonic exciter. I've used the one in Ozone to good effect on drums. Unlike distortion plugins, exciters can actually help cymbals. I haven't had any luck with the one that comes bundled with SONAR. Gated reverb is a long-established method for making drums sound fatter. No, I'm not talking about that 80's style gated 'verb that the hair bands used. Ugh. But dial it back, and it subtly fattens hits without calling attention to itself. Delays are another useful effect, primarily on snares. Keep them subtle and sync them to tempo. Depending on your style, heavy compression can help a drum track. Usually, it's used to make drums sound thicker, but in your case you probably want to slow the attack to emphasize transients. You're really doing the same thing as a transient shaper, just with less finesse. Try the free LoudMax limiter on drum tracks. It won't liven dull drums, but it will make them more intense. Give the SONAR-bundled Percussion Strip a try. It has most of the effects you'll need in one convenient plugin. Personally, I've not had a lot of success with it, but maybe I didn't give it enough of a chance. And of course don't forget EQ. If you have an equalizer that does Mid/Side processing, try boosting the highs on the sides. That will tend to bring out the transients on ride cymbals.
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DPStewart
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Re:Need Suggestions for Making Drum Loops More Punchy
2012/05/13 05:49:27
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Look - you must realize that drum performances can vary as much as guitar performances. Both Slash and downtempo jazz players may both use a Les Paul..but to very different ends. You must learn orchestration. It is more powerful than EQ's or compressors or any of the crutch tools. I can hit a snare drum in a radically different way than a jazz player would hit the same drum. You must learn the difference if you want to be in control of your recordings. I don't hardly even use any of those tools to "Shape" the character of a performance anymore... it's just less powerful. Change the way the player strikes the instrument if you really want to get what you're after. Players can and will make more of a difference than tweaky sound tools. Plus: it's more fun that way.
post edited by DPStewart - 2012/05/13 05:50:41
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razor
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Re:Need Suggestions for Making Drum Loops More Punchy
2012/05/13 21:54:35
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Thanks man. I know there' re cool stuff in Sonar that I haven't messed with and that's really what I was hoping to hear. BTW--the drum loops are only a little dull. If there were too flat I wouldn't use them. They just need a little finesse. I'll try shaping the transients. I did try using the Lexicon Pantheon that bundled with Sonar, but it actually pushed the drums farther back in the mix. Sure I may have needed to lighten up a little, but then again, dry sounds good sometimes too. Thanks again! sd
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Beagle
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Re:Need Suggestions for Making Drum Loops More Punchy
2012/05/14 08:53:29
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I've had mixed success with the Percussion Strip bundled with sonar. sometimes I can get a really nice sound from it, others not so much. it depends completely on the drums I'm working with, how they were recorded, and what I want out of it.
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Iron Keys
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Re:Need Suggestions for Making Drum Loops More Punchy
2012/05/14 15:46:57
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To make your drums more punchier, and I've only skimmed the posts, so I'm guessing you also mean a bit 'beefier', I'd personally suggest the following... Parallel Compression. Create a duplicate of your drum channel/bus. 1st Channel - you can leave this one completely dry, or you could apply snap compression, or use a transient shaper to increase the peak/attack (Waves has a cool one, I think sonar has one too?), snap compression; make the peaks cut through the attack. Duplicate channel - overly limit/compress them, squash them up proper. OR leave your original signal dry, and apply a transient shaper to this channel. Blend the duplicate with the original. You can REALLY beef up drums this way. One of my last tracks, the synths were sounding rich n thick, the drums just sounded a bit lacklustre, so I did the above (Snap + Squashed compression) and it really brought my drums forward in the mix with some good weight and punch. Love.
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razor
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Re:Need Suggestions for Making Drum Loops More Punchy
2012/05/15 22:43:26
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Iron Keys To make your drums more punchier, and I've only skimmed the posts, so I'm guessing you also mean a bit 'beefier', I'd personally suggest the following... Parallel Compression. Create a duplicate of your drum channel/bus. 1st Channel - you can leave this one completely dry, or you could apply snap compression, or use a transient shaper to increase the peak/attack (Waves has a cool one, I think sonar has one too?), snap compression; make the peaks cut through the attack. Duplicate channel - overly limit/compress them, squash them up proper. OR leave your original signal dry, and apply a transient shaper to this channel. Blend the duplicate with the original. You can REALLY beef up drums this way. One of my last tracks, the synths were sounding rich n thick, the drums just sounded a bit lacklustre, so I did the above (Snap + Squashed compression) and it really brought my drums forward in the mix with some good weight and punch. Love. Another great suggestion. I've been just going over this again and again in my head since I read the post. I messed with the TS64 and it does makes the skins of the drums punchier, but doesn't do a whole lot for the timbre of the hi hat, etc. (at least I didn't like what it did to them). So, if I get the the timbre of the hi hat, etc dialed in on one track of the drum loops, I could layer another with what the TS64 does to the skins. It makes total sense too because with proper micing, that's what's going on in a session with a real kit anyway. Very cool  Just as a reminder, I'm please with my MIDI drums I got in kontakt 4, so those stay. I definitely think I'll be looking for another source for drums instead of loops in the future. Sure, they're easy to work with, but they just sound dull--oh, and the toms are not panned--another not so great thing.
Stephen Davis Cakewalk by Bandlab Windows 7 Pro 64-Bit ADK DAW - (out of business 2018) Intel i7 4930K CPU Core i7 SB-E MOBO 16 GB DDR3 RAM 7 TB Storage Layla 3G SoundCard (11.5 ms Roundtrip Latency) UAD-2 DSP WaveLab 8 Pro 64-bit Sound Forge 10 Pro
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razor
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Re:Need Suggestions for Making Drum Loops More Punchy
2012/05/15 22:46:50
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Beagle I've had mixed success with the Percussion Strip bundled with sonar. sometimes I can get a really nice sound from it, others not so much. it depends completely on the drums I'm working with, how they were recorded, and what I want out of it. I don't think I've ever even opened that tool. I'll check it out though--ya never know. It's like a palet of paints to an artist!
Stephen Davis Cakewalk by Bandlab Windows 7 Pro 64-Bit ADK DAW - (out of business 2018) Intel i7 4930K CPU Core i7 SB-E MOBO 16 GB DDR3 RAM 7 TB Storage Layla 3G SoundCard (11.5 ms Roundtrip Latency) UAD-2 DSP WaveLab 8 Pro 64-bit Sound Forge 10 Pro
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bitflipper
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Re:Need Suggestions for Making Drum Loops More Punchy
2012/05/16 10:42:05
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Compression very often doesn't do any favors for hi-hats, and can drastically change the character of rides and crash cymbals. If the hats are on their own track just don't send them to the compression bus. It's kick, snare and toms that get the most benefit from parallel compression. You may also want to send only the snare bottom mic to the bus and not the top mic, which further reduces the amount of hats being compressed. Of course, this assumes that a) they're multitrack drums, and b) that you're implementing parallel compression via a bus, as opposed to putting a compressor in-line with the drum bus and using its wet/dry mix control. If you're stuck with a stereo mix (as most canned loops are), parallel compression will have to be applied with a light hand.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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