Midi Orchestration Advice (for a noobie)?

I'm sorta just getting into creating complex orchestra pieces. I have often in the past created simple string arrangements as a background to songs, or to accompany acoustic or piano parts - that sort of thing. Not too hard. But now, I'm trying to create lines that are a bit more complex. I'm really having trouble making it all sound real.

First met me say - I played in band all the way through college. Symphonic band, wind ensembles, jazz band (although mostly guitar in that one). Anyhow - my point is I have a very good understanding of musical composition. My trouble is simply recording (or, in some cases drawing) parts that have proper articulations. I use Sonar X1 and I have both Garritan Personal Orchestra 4 and IK Miroslav Philharmonik. I think they both sound good and both have plenty of articulations to choose from. But I just can't wrap my head around it just yet. I'll play a nice melodic line, but due to attacks, or arpeggios (etc) the notes run together and the melody is not defined. Or just the opposite - it's too defined and needs to flow a bit better.

Is there somewhere (a book, a video, etc) that will help me utilize the tools I have to create more realistic sounding symphony pieces? I know it can be done - I have heard online samples that have blown me away!

Thank you, in advance, for any advice you can offer. And if I'm postic this in the wrong section, feel free to move it and accept my apologies.

Study, listen to well-arranged recordings, and practice writng your own.  Here are some of my fave recommendations on midi arranging: 
 
http://www.amazon.com/Arranging-Techniques-Synthesists-Eric-Turkel/dp/082561130X
 
http://www.amazon.com/Guide-MIDI-Orchestration-Paul-Gilreath/dp/0964670526
 
http://www.groove3.com/str/midi-orchestration-explained.html
 
There are plenty of other good resources online. Set some realistic goals... and have some fun while you're at it.
 
 

I'm sorta just getting into creating complex orchestra pieces. I have often in the past created simple string arrangements as a background to songs, or to accompany acoustic or piano parts - that sort of thing. Not too hard. But now, I'm trying to create lines that are a bit more complex. I'm really having trouble making it all sound real.

 
This is one of the biggest challenges in MIDI composition.  The best thing you can do is learn as much as possible about the layout and composition of a real orchestra.  It's quite different from symphonic band. 
 
My background is similar to yours.  I played in symphonic bands through school (as a clarinetist) and later picked up sax and flute, not to mention guitar, keyboards, drums and others.  Sax is my forte, but I've retained my love for symphonic music and carry all that experience into my composing.  I initially had to unlearn a lot of what I understood about music coming from a band background, because it's completely different from an orchestra.  In the process, I developed a much deeper respect for the power, beauty and versatility of the string sections.
 
It's important to learn all about the various articulations and bowing techniques.  I think the best way to do this is simply listening to the styles of music you're interested in composing, paying particular attention to what each section is doing and how they are interacting.  As you learn about the various techniques, you'll be able to pick up on them and know when to use them and, more importantly, how they should sound in your own mixes.
 
As for specific techniques, there are many.  You might need to use a variety of articulations in a single phrase.  For example, the 1st violins might have a legato passage, with many notes on a single bow stroke, then a detache run with each note bowed separately in an up/down pattern, ending with a trill or tremolo effect.  This sort of detail takes a lot of time and attention, not to mention knowledge of what the instruments can and can't do.
 
You may also need to play with the attack, release, etc. within the synth's controls.  You can do so in real-time or after the fact by assigning the relevant controls to a MIDI controller (using ACT or MIDI CCs).  You may also need to vary the velocity, expression and volume either while you record (or sequence), or afterwards to achieve a realistic performance.  Again, mapping the related controls to a MIDI controller is most helpful, although the same can be done using envelopes in Sonar. 
 
If you're sequencing a section (let's say the 1st violins again), it may be helpful to layer one solo instrument over the top to give the section some extra definition.  Ideally, this would be a real live person (have any violin playing friends?), but a solo patch will do.  You may also layer a synth patch under the sampled patch for fullness.  There are no rules, you just have to use your ears to get the best sound. 
 
Keep in mind, normally (for our purposes) the sections each play in unison.  That is to say, the 1st violins play one part (usually the highest lead), the 2nd violins play another, the violas another, the cellos another, and the basses another.   It's best not to create harmonies within a section, but use a separate patch for each part.  This will give you the most realistic resonance.  There are certainly cases where you may want them to play "divisi"--for example, have some violas play one part and some another--but that will result in a much less defined mix (and make your job a lot harder). 
 
There might be instances where you don't even need a fully defined orchestra, but instead can achieve the desired effect with a few generic string patches.  My "old style" of doing strings was usually to divide them into three sections, panned out:  High strings panned left, mid strings panned right, and bass strings in the center.  This is only an approximation of a real orchestra but still sounds great for many purposes. 
 
I don't have experience with GPO or Miroslav, but I understand they are both quality libraries.  I'm using EastWest Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra Platinum.  It's awesome, I absolutely love it.  Even so, it still takes a little experimentation to draw out just the right mix.  EastWest makes that relatively easy, since the samples are already in their proper acoustic environment.  Platinum also gives you the option of mixing mic placements between close, stage and surround, so it's a little easier to bring out the particular sonority you desire.  But you should be able to achieve the same effects with your libraries with a little creative tinkering. 
 
I've recently been reading a book that might be just what you need:
 
Acoustic and MIDI Orchestration for the Contemporary Composer: A Practical Guide to Writing and Sequencing for the Studio Orchestra by Andrea Pejrolo
http://amzn.com/0240520211
 
The book contains many great tips on exactly this topic, including basic orchestration for each section, specifics such as ranges and articulations, plus some detailed info on MIDI CCs and so forth.  I think you might find it invaluable.  I've enjoyed it so far, and have even picked up a few gems, myself. 
 
Hope this helps.  Best of luck, and enjoy!

Using the low end sample sets will not allow you the options you will have in the high end sample sets for articulation and realism. I'm not saying you can't compose a nice sounding orchestral piece with GPO or MP... it's just not going to sound as real. 

Quite simply, in many cases, the old phrase that "you get what you pay for" is true ....especially in the quality of the sample libraries..... why do you think all the TV composers and film composers use them? 

I have never heard one single composer (at that level of the business) tell me they use GPO. 

GPO and MP are good libraries for learning and mock-ups,  but you will need better libraries to get a realistic sound.  Cinematic Strings 2.0 and Cinebrass are 2 good places to start.

 You'll need to get libraries that offer true legato programing and round robin triggering otherwise it is very, very hard to get realistic melody lines.  I don't care how much you know about orchestration and midi, it will be almost impossible to get realistic orchestrations without the right tools.

There is this guy, Daniel James, who does product reviews and tutorials for Orchestral software plug-ins.  They tend to be long winded, but he goes into great detail about the software.  The hidden nugget here is he demonstrates some really cool techniques that can be used anywhere.  He seems to be a really talented composer.  Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDSeWyuzjrk

wineshop, despite much of the above advice, I have to say that IMO it's a myth that you can't do "realistic" orchestration with mid-priced libraries. 

I've heard some really great stuff made with Miroslav and GPO, and even the lowly TTS-1. And I've heard some thin, boring crap made with the highest of the high-end libraries.

My #1 piece of advice: play each part individually and monophonically, just like the real instruments in an orchestra. Do not drop notes in via the PRV. Do not "fix" MIDI notes unless it's an obvious flub. And never, ever quantize.

While I do firmly believe that the better libraries will sound more realistic, I do agree with Bit Flipper to some degree.

I heard someone here ....probably about a year ago, who posted a composition they they had worked on, in our songs forum.

The song was composed using PRV or staff view.... I forget exactly which, but I do remember the individual stating they had entered every note manually with the mouse.  The composition was orchestral in nature and encompassed multiple instruments. The synth used was the lowly TTS. 

The music was phenomenal. And it was well executed. 

So yes, it is possible to do this with the lower priced libraries.  The guys who work on movie soundtracks are the ones who must use the best libraries that are available as very often, it will not be taken to a "real orchestra" to do the final recordings.... it will be used "as is" assuming that works for the producer. 

Since I have VSL and Hollywood, I tend to use them, but some of the synths I have are just as good for some sounds.

My old JV-1080 with orchestral expansion cards has excellent oboes, flutes, and triple horn (French horn).  The Tyros 2 has great trumpets and really good strings if you can live with the limited articulations.

The more expensive libraries are really worth the money when it comes to 1-solo strings and 2-more and better articulations (e.g., sfz, detache, portamento, true legato...).

I got great solo strings out of Vienna the first day, but it took some time to get the orchestral string legatos right so they didn't sound like a high-end Mellotron.  This is just a matter of taking time and getting someone who knows VSL to help.  Unfortunately, VSL doesn't have a lot of good training.

It is easy to get good sounds with Hollywood once you understand how to set it with the articulations you need in your DAW—much harder than VSL in this respect—and, as mentioned earlier, it is a system hog.

HeatherHaze

My old JV-1080 with orchestral expansion cards has excellent oboes, flutes, and triple horn (French horn).

 
I agree, I have the Orchestral expansion in my trusty JV-1010 (same engine as the 1080).  It's a true classic.  A lot of the patches still hold up really well, like the ones you mentioned.  The "warm violins" patch is practically legendary.  It was my "go to" synth for orchestral sounds for a long time, until I got EWQLSO.  When it comes to usable orchestra patches, it still beats most of the softsynths in X1, even the Fantom built into the VS-700.  It's not in the same league as the major libraries, naturally, but can still be used to layer certain instruments for a nice full sound (and without taking a hit on CPU or memory). 

+1!   I love the JV1010 and Orch Expansion.  I have some the best libraries out there and the Roland JV1010 hangs right in there.   VSL's woodwinds work a tiny bit better because of a legato slur that is programed between intervals,  but the tone of the Oboe in the JV1010 is killer.  I think there is a bit of analogue mixed into the sample that makes the patch sing.
 
I keep the JV1010 fired up just in case,  and I aint afraid to use it if something goes down.    

So the thread has turned into a JV-10xx lovefest? Well, I've got a JV-1080 with the Orchestral expansion and I agree. It's still fantastic. I have lots of old projects that were done with it and I had to remix. I had time so I thought I'd replace the 1080 parts with some nice new monster Orchestral library sounds. I ended up not doing it since I couldn't improve the sound. A lot of it was that I was just really used to the 1080 sound in those tracks. But it was also that the 1080 was just so well programmed to be playable and blend well with all its other sounds. It's really an excellent box.

They should do a softsynth clone of it--a true clone of the engine, ROM, and programming, not just a sampled library of it.