Which of course raises the question, for people using still-supported and/or -workable PCI cards, whether it is advantageous (or even necessary) to dump their PCI card and get a PCIe card. I mean, if one can still use one's PCI interface in a new mobo, and a new PCIe version won't offer much if any improvement, why go to the expense?

No one likes to make a "lateral" purchase... as it doesn't bring much new/exciting to the table.  
I say lateral... (assuming we're talking about top performing units in each category), because performance between Firewire, USB2, PCIe, and PCI is extremely close.  Unless you need to work at a 32-sample ASIO buffer size, it's effectively a moot point.

The issue with PCI audio interfaces isn't going away.
At some point (in the not too distant future), the unit will have to be replaced.
We've all been thru similar issues with gear.  Gear that worked perfectly fine was phased-out, superseded, discontinued, etc.

• We're currently seeing this with WinXP
• We've been thru it with the original PCI UAD-1 (prior to the announcement of the UAD-2)
• Logic on the PC

As technology moves on (and PC hardware moves fast), the lack of development/testing with PCI units increases the odds that issues will crop up.  If you're dealing with many clients running PCI units, some are going to encounter problems.  When you're trying to provide universal compatibility and rock-solid stability, this is an X-factor (variable).

I don't think anyone is actually in disagreement on the basic principals/issues here.  

"""assuming we're talking about top performing units in each category/because performance between Firewire, USB2, PCIe, and PCI is extremely close.  Unless you need to work at a 32-sample ASIO buffer size, it's effectively a moot point. """"

pretty much sums up exactly what i have been saying.. not to many in here need 32 buffer. there are a few real composers in here pretty sure i know all 6-10

and hey Jim, how in the world did you get such a pretty girl with that mug of yours?

and hey Jim, how in the world did you get such a pretty girl with that mug of yours?

Yeah, I know...  
She's the whole package.
Personality, Career, Looks, Character... 
She's the perfect fit for me.

Jim Roseberry

Namely companies like M-Audio and Echo who previously made (rather popular) PCI interfaces seemed to have passed over PCIe. Why is that?

For most end-users, the best Firewire and USB2 audio interfaces offer performance that's right on par with the best PCIe units.

For best fidelity, the A/D and D/A converters need to be outside the PC... so (with a quality PCIe audio interface) there's the expense of manufacturing both a controller-card AND breakout box.

For the end-user, a quality Firewire/USB2 audio interface is an easy install.  Don't have to open the case...

In short:  Cost and convenience...

...which is all fine and good except the fact that Firewire is pretty much on its deathbed now, and USB3 is already making its entrance.


I have a Firewire interface (Echo AudioFire4) for my Mac Book Pro that I use for live performance/mobile recording (I use another DAW for those sorts of projects). I've always shied away from USB as an audio interface due to latency and (especially in the case of USB2) takes away processor resources. The PC I'm building now has one FW jack in the motherboard, though I have no idea whether it'll work with a FW interface, which, as I mentioned, is a dying breed now.

Whoa, who shook the tree and knocked the cat down? All we need now is Pdemotech and Perlman to drop in. Hmm, maybe if I spell it as "Pearlman"...

Speculation on the imminent demise of FW really began to take off when Apple, which had developed FW, dropped it from its low-end Macbook offering in favor of USB2, although still offering FW (FW800 even) on its higher end stuff. Apple had already dropped FW from iPods several years earlier. 

I am curious about the "hybrid" interfaces, with both FW and USB (like iPods had for a while)), as to how performance differs (if at all?) between the two. 

Dunno. I see far fewer notebook PCs offered with FW ports these days, although I suppose it's still possible to use express card for FW. But that might factor into things insofar as the popularity of notebook PCs and Macbooks seem to have been driving a good portion of the audio interface offerings for some time now.

As for USB audio interfaces, tried 'em, they didn't work well enough for what I wanted to do (ITB guitar fx), and I went for solutions with onboard fx which while they still use USB to interface with a PC, the fx are done in the external units and don't need to traverse the USB link and use the PC.  Have been seeing more interfaces (both FW and USB) offering onboard fx now, which I think is a good direction.

OTOH, since getting an iPad, I've only been looking at those USB interfaces which are compliant with Apple's 'Core Audio' without needing any drivers and can work through an iPad dock USB adapter, although some new ones now offer both dock and USB connections. I know this is the CW forum, but the Auria DAW app is very appealing.

Still remains to be seen how well USB3 will work for audio, and what audio interfaces, etc. adopt it. I'm not gonna hold my breath.

Since PCI Express came onto the scene, I've wondered if there would be be an "external" version implemented for connecting peripherals. There were electrical bus length limits with PCI which prevented it from being extended outside, and I had thought PCIe overcame those to an extent, or could be made extendable through going optical, but never saw that emerge. Now it seems that PCIe 3.0 is being optically extended, so we'll see.

I mean, e-Sata just performs so much better for external storage interfacing than USB2 ever has that I long ago started to avoid any external storage gear which lacks e-Sata. And I wouldn't think of getting a notebook for audio that lacked an e-Sata port or couldn't be fitted with an e-SATA card. But there are still cable length limits with e-Sata.

My feeling is that the future will be bringing even better interfacing for audio, probably on Thunderbolt (waiting to see how Apollo does there) or optical PCIe. Should be interesting.

Now perhaps Jose C. will chime in and let us know how it all will work....

Nice squeeze, Cat. Like the Mullet too! 


Edit: Just moogled around a bit and came across this old gem from the past:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/cakewalk.audio/3s19HeJGnbo%5B1-25%5D

Oh my. Hehe! 

actually Jim with the right USB 3 chipset and external drive (not name brand crap) we are seeing 140Meg/s
much faster than esata.

Goddard,
""I am curious about the "hybrid" interfaces, with both FW and USB (like iPods had for a while)), as to how performance differs (if at all?) between the two. ""

RME units: given a good USB2 port the USB 2 will actually outperform (very slightly) the firewire. on a bad port (say a laptop where it shares with the esata) way worse..
Motu shows pretty much dead even. but again the weak usb port will effect as well.
and as mentioned FW/USB perform right there on par with PCIe. (given the right interface) for most the .75ms difference isnt worth the price of admission.

i have tons of "PRO" clients using RME USB/FW interfaces without issue at very low latency.
the % of sales of PCI/PCIe based cards have dropped significantly in the last few yrs.
and many of these (FW/USB) have Adat ports for adding of botique AD/DA and or Mic pres making the need for PCi/PCie nearly pointless.

PCIe is needed if you need lots of I/O (madi) or something like the Motu 424 interfaces or have to have aes connections
NOT for low latency ability.. yes i do have some who must work @ 32buffer and 48/64 isnt good enough for them..

Hi Jim and Scott,

Thanks for the info. Good to know. I will actually be looking at some of the latest interfaces tomorrow, for PC and iPad.

What about the onboard fx, how "realtime" are they really? I read that some fx on Apollo were pretty slow, but I believe those were ones not normally used when tracking/monitoring. MOTU's new Track 16 looks interesting, but perhaps not if reverb has to run ITB as appears to be the case with some interfaces I've read about that split the fx duty between onboard and ITB. Does RME's Babface do that? Hopefully will be able to get answers on that myself tomorrow, and share some firsthand info if I can get hands on.

Yeah, that old newsgroup thread made me chuckle too. Wasn't that the reason everyone started calling their Pete Leoni RYO C300a DAWS "Pearlmans"?

Jim, nope, not Lionel nor any relation, although that name does kinda ring a faint bell from somewhere. Yeah, seen some hairstyles in my time. Wish I still had as much on top as you. :)

Wasn't that the reason everyone started calling their Pete Leoni RYO C300a DAWS "Pearlmans"?

What a blast from the past!  My second DAW was a RYO 300A "Pearlman" ... 
My third DAW addded a Dakota/Montana cards to the fray, cards I bought from Jim Roseberry, I'm still using them today. 
I'm trying to find someone using the ASrock X79 Xtreme 4 with the Dakota/Montana successfully before I drop any money on a new MB, this MB may enable me to get another 5 years out of the old Frontier cards. 

elsongs, best of luck! I'm certain many of us are interested in learning how things work out with your ASrock X79 out there on the new bleeding edge of DAWs.

Thanks! So far, so good! Installed Win 7 64-bit and just got X1 Producer and have been trying to get acclimated to it (From Sonar 7PE). The CPU fan (a Zalman 9900) was freaking HUGE! The only problem I had with the AsRock was that one of the secondary SATA ports stopped working for some unknown reason, so I just reconnected the drive to a different SATA 3 port and I was good to go.


My ESI Waveterminal 192M PCI sound card seems to work just fine on the AsRock motherboard with the 64-bit drivers. I'll probably upgrade to a PreSonus firewire card down the line when I have the money.