trimph1
Max Output Level: -12 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6348
- Joined: 2010/09/07 19:20:06
- Location: London ON
- Status: offline
Gain staging and Volume...
Now, I've actually figured out what Gain Staging and Volume is about...more by accident than anything else My question is why can't these things be explained better?!? Who makes the best tutorials for this kind of thing?
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
|
mattplaysguitar
Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1992
- Joined: 2006/01/02 00:27:42
- Location: Gold Coast, Australia
- Status: offline
Re:Gain staging and Volume...
2012/06/25 07:32:48
(permalink)
☄ Helpful
The below is how I plan to work when I start mixing my album (4-6 months away). Start by using trim to get all tracks to the same RMS value, ensuring there are no overs. Then every single plug I use along the way has the volume out matched so if I bypass it, there is no perceivable change in volume. All level adjustments are done with the final volume. This way I can set a quick volume, including quick automation if needed, then as I apply compression and eq and other processes, the volume does not change in the mix so everything stays nice and happy. Remembering that bass plays a big role in the overall volume, so I'd like to set that level first. I'm still yet to determine the exact RMS value I'll use, but I'll choose one which gives me plenty of headroom. Then it stays fixed. Every level is adjusted around it. I then determine some monitoring level spots on my interface. This way I can ensure that every song I mix should be at the same volume. As I progress, I expect to get a few more RMS numbers going so I can try to have pretty even mixing levels between songs, then tweak as required. There would be similarities there in the K-System I think (monitoring levels) but I need to read up over that one again cause I can't remember the complete workings of it. I hope using the above technique should allow pretty consistent levels between songs. I'll probably start by setting the gain levels with respect to the chorus, or typical loudest section so everything can be based on that. Mixing like this will hopefully make mastering the album much easier as there should be reasonable uniformity between tracks just from mixing. Another thing aside from the above, I usually don't like to let me volume go over 0dB during early mixing so might start initial balancing by using the trim. This gives me plenty of flexibility later on to boost up to 6dB if needed. You don't want to be adjusting the trim later on in the mix as it's going to screw with your compressor settings. Trim stuff should all be done at the start. You may want to have the levels tightly set initially with the trim so that you have that extra resolution when fine tuning things later on. Moving your mouse ±1 dB in the -6dB range is easy to do, but if you have your volume down to -20dB, it's getting a bit fine and you might need to type things in potentially. Won't affect things sound wise, but might make life easier if you keep it in mind.
|
trimph1
Max Output Level: -12 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6348
- Joined: 2010/09/07 19:20:06
- Location: London ON
- Status: offline
Re:Gain staging and Volume...
2012/06/25 07:44:33
(permalink)
Yeah..that sounds like something I need to keep in mind..I don't need shocks to the system anymore than I already got...saved your post.
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
|
mattplaysguitar
Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1992
- Joined: 2006/01/02 00:27:42
- Location: Gold Coast, Australia
- Status: offline
Re:Gain staging and Volume...
2012/06/25 08:30:31
(permalink)
I'm sure there are a ton of ways of working and every person will do things a little differently. I guess it's all about seeing how other people work and putting it all together to devise a way which works best for you. I'll be interested to see how others approach it. I used to just 'wing it', but I like the idea I have been developing above over the last few months. I'm looking forward to trying it out in the future and seeing how well it works!
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re:Gain staging and Volume...
2012/06/25 09:26:04
(permalink)
☄ Helpful
It is important to distinguish between peak and rms values of any signal. To get gain staging correct you need to know about both, not just one. Most DAW's provide good peak indication devices but are poor in the rms area. You need VU meters to show rms values more readily. Real ones are best but if you cannot get them or use them there are some great plug in alternatives. We know that in order to avoid clipping and getting too close to 0dB FS we need to work at some ref level down from that. K system suggests 3 ref levels -12, -14 and -20 db FS. What ever you choose as a ref level you need the VU meter to show 0 dB VU when the rms signal is down at the ref level. This is where any rms indicators that DAW's provide are useless. Because if you are down at say -20 db then the rms level is very low on the meter scale (in Sonar case 3 db even lower than that) hence they are hard to read down so low on a meter scale. If you track correctly at your ref level using a VU meter then all your tracks are already at the correct rms levels. If not you can check each track one by one with the VU to see where it sits in relation to your chosen ref level. Use your trim controls to either add or subtract gain accordingly. The loudest parts of the song should only just reach 0dB VU either on the buses or the masterbuss. You can still get the perfect mix and get your buses just hitting 0dB VU and your masterbuss also just hitting 0dB VU on the loudest parts of the music. Softer sections will drop below that but they are supposed to. If you work this way you will have perfect consistency level wise between all your songs and mastering is also much easier as well. Also you will never even come close to clipping 0dB FS (anywhere on tracks or buses) because of the headroom that you have built in by choosing the K system ref level that you have. (Note: you can still clip plugins peak wise on tracks and buses and still maintain a correct rms level so use the input and output controls on your plugins to avoid peak clipping and fine tune for correct rms levels) I work at either K-14 for a lot of general work and K-20 for the highest quality and most transient sound. Both have their merits. K-14 means less push up level wise during the mastering stage to reach the final mastered loud rms level. K-20 just means you have got further to come up to achieve the same final mastered level. But it also means you have got this beautiful pristine transient version of your mix with 20 dB of headroom if you ever need to go backwards to that. You see peak indicators are great at keeping peak levels consistent on tracks and busses and that is what most of you are doing, but your rms levels are all over the place. That is why people have problems with gain staging and levels getting out of control. VU meters keep rms levels consistent on tracks and busses and the peak levels are varying. This is how it was with analog in the old days. We did not worry about peaks because the headroom built into all the analog stages took care of the peaks. But with digital we have obsessed about peaks (rightly so too) and dropped the VU meter in favour of peak indicators. You really need both. Using a K system approach also takes care of the peaks due to the headroom we decide to use in choosing our ref level. The secret to perfect gain staging is using VU meters. Without them you are floundering in the dark. Most people don't use them and that is why most are floundering in the dark not getting their gain staging correct, clipping tracks and busses everywhere and wondering why their levels are all over the place. If you get a good result without them, you are only doing it by luck. As I have said many times all serious mixing consoles have them and so does every mastering engineer worth their salt as well. K system is also about consistent monitoring levels in your control room at the chosen ref level. I like using 85 dB SPL. (C weighting, music too NOT pink noise!) Some say that is too loud but I disagree. I think it is a great volume. And a volume where the ear is at its best (if you can call it that) frequency response wise. If you monitor for too long either above or below 85 dB SPL you will be making incorrect mix decisions. There are plugins that can do great VU metering. BlueCat meter is very good. http://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Product_DPeakMeterPro/ There are some free ones too but they don't look like a normal VU meter but the bar graph concept as per the BlueCat. But the BlueCat is a classy display though. But if you want a VST that looks like a real VU meter the Klanghelm meters are also excellent. http://www.klanghelm.com/VUMT.html The Klang meters are cheap and they can be set for a very accurate representation of a real VU ballistic. The settings are not like that standard, I have done some extensive testing and got the perfect settings that set up a ballistic very similar to my real VU's which are expensive and very very good. Many of you are getting great results and mixes without VU meters that is for sure, but if you got into them and really started using them your results would be even better, that is what I believe anyway. Because I am old I have come from the analog era with lots of VU's into the digital era but I have still maintained the use of VU's right through both systems and because of it some aspects of my production just have not changed at all from analog to digital and maintained an amazing sense of consistency. But in other aspects digital is way better, no noise and great transients that analog just could never produce as well. Sorry for the long post, it is almost as long as a Danny post LOL! But then again I don't think I could ever out do Danny in that respect!
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2012/06/25 10:41:20
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
trimph1
Max Output Level: -12 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6348
- Joined: 2010/09/07 19:20:06
- Location: London ON
- Status: offline
Re:Gain staging and Volume...
2012/06/25 09:47:48
(permalink)
Yeah..I had the sneaking sus p i c ion that I was missing something here Now, since I have no actual VU meters here which VST would be good for this?
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
|
Bristol_Jonesey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 16775
- Joined: 2007/10/08 15:41:17
- Location: Bristol, UK
- Status: offline
Re:Gain staging and Volume...
2012/06/25 10:29:13
(permalink)
☄ Helpful
I've got Blue Cat's Digital Peak Meter Pro which is the one recommended by Jeff in his previous post. Does exactly what it says on the tin, and more. Well worth the expense.
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
|
Bristol_Jonesey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 16775
- Joined: 2007/10/08 15:41:17
- Location: Bristol, UK
- Status: offline
Re:Gain staging and Volume...
2012/06/25 10:30:42
(permalink)
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re:Gain staging and Volume...
2012/06/25 10:51:57
(permalink)
☄ Helpful
The only thing I find a bit weird now about the BlueCat meter is there is no actual serious marking at 0dB VU but rather a change in colour only. (the nearest marking is at either -2dB and +2 dB) I know it might be nit picking but I find it harder to read in some ways compared to the Klang meters which have a definite 0dB VU mark and it is nice and clear and obvious. But the BlueCat as Bristol says does a lot more as well and it is a nice meter too. I am little biased now toward the Klang meter because it visually looks like a real VU and can be set to behave like one too.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
Sonico
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 266
- Joined: 2003/11/25 12:53:58
- Status: offline
Re:Gain staging and Volume...
2012/06/25 17:18:14
(permalink)
Hi Jeff, I find your comments very interesting, but I can't figure how to use the k-14 reference on drums, I mean if I try to get the kick drum or snare drum to read 0 dB VU, the peaks are going to be very high. Am I misunderstanding something? I hope you can give me some light on that matter Thanks
Desktop: Intel Core i7 3.60Ghz, 16 GB Ram Windows 10 64bit Laptop: Intel i5 2.3Ghz, 6GB Ram Windows 10 64bit Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 Presonus Faderport My Music
|
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 18001
- Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
- Status: offline
Re:Gain staging and Volume...
2012/06/25 17:28:15
(permalink)
I really need to read and understand this thread. You guys are awesome.
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re:Gain staging and Volume...
2012/06/25 17:47:04
(permalink)
☄ Helpful
Hi there Sonico This is a good question and I should have made myself a little clearer on this. OK very transient sounds such as kicks and snares and drums overall are going to behave differently to most other sounds. Most sounds have an rms value that is present long enough for a VU meter to read well but very transient sounds don't. The VU's are slow to respond to very transient sounds. What I do with them is basically use your peak meters to simply keep an eye on those sounds. The VU's are OK as well but just go for them to reach say -5 dB or so. They will move but just not as high on the scale as most other sounds do. (this does depend a bit on the drum sounds involved. Very thin, fast sounds will not move the VU's as much as say fatter and bigger kicks and snares) Send all your drums to the drum buss and when you put a VU on that you will see that when the whole kit is present the VU's will start responding more normally especially with toms present. Watch your peak meters and maintain levels so that the peaks still do not hit close to 0dB FS but observe where the average reading of the VU's are on the drum buss. You will see it is somewhere around -5dB or so. When engineers are using VU's to monitor drums they are often looking around -5 dB or so. By the time you are VU metering the masterbuss the VU's will be responding normally and you will still be hearing your drums clearly too.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
trimph1
Max Output Level: -12 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6348
- Joined: 2010/09/07 19:20:06
- Location: London ON
- Status: offline
Re:Gain staging and Volume...
2012/06/25 19:38:09
(permalink)
Now here is another head scratcher for me...if I am, say, using ambient sounds such as ventilator fans or crickets and the like would they be classified as transients? And any suggestions as to how to play those up a bit?
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re:Gain staging and Volume...
2012/06/25 19:49:34
(permalink)
☄ Helpful
Sound effects are either usually pretty slow rms wise unless they contain a loud transient within the effect. If they are smooth rms wise, I would still have them sitting at the ref level and set the desired amount of level of the effect in your final mix with the channel fader. If there is a loud transient within the effect them I would be watching the peak meters to make sure the transient does not clip and let the rms level sit where it happens to be at. But then I might be looking at the transient and perhaps limiting the maximum level from the transient and get the smooth part of the effect back up to the rms ref level. eg If a transient reaches -2 dB but the rms level is around say -18db (assuming a -14 dB ref level) then I would limit the transient to -6db and add 4 db of gain to the whole effect bringing the overall rms level back up to my -14 dB ref level. Before doing that a transient that reaches -2dB and has an overall rms level of -18 dB means the transient is 16 dB above the smooth part of the effect and that is going to be hard to control later anyway. If you are working at K-14 then a transient can be 14 db above the average level before it is going to cause any grief and that is a lot. Even if a sound effect does not contain a loud transient but has mainly a smooth overall rms type level but varies in level I am only interested in getting the loudest part to reach the ref level and that is it. All other softer levels will fall below that and hence maintain their dynamic relationship to the loudest part. If a sound effect does consist of a one shot type sound there will usually be plenty of time for the rms level to develop so all I am aiming for in that case is for the loudest part of that one shot sound to just reach the ref level or 0dB VU.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2012/06/25 23:57:32
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
Philip
Max Output Level: -34.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4062
- Joined: 2007/03/21 13:09:13
- Status: offline
Re:Gain staging and Volume...
2012/06/26 01:47:12
(permalink)
VU meters? You guys (esp Matt and Jeff) are awesome at explaining what I can't. Hopefully, the Sonar (Vertical/Horizontal) track meters are acceptable in this regard ... as I believe I subconsciously observe their mean and peak levels? Of course the ears and precise headphones may help ... and/or ARC monitoring. ... depending on preferences. Personally, I stay off the trims and busses ... and prefer the red clip-gain envelopes or volume envelopes ... depending on the clip solidity/performance ... on the track level only. But each of us works differently ... to envelope, tweek up, and reduce our levels. I find that adjusting buss levels generally results in destruction for me ... due to the delicate vibes of the tracks being so relative .. one another. IOWs ... Most of my tracks seem to become 'irreducible complexities' ... similar to cascading enzymes or DNA codons ... I suppose. One deleterious mutation and the whole building collapses. Fortunately, song design seems intuitively forgiveable with many awkward levels tweakable in many ways ... to be exqusitely polished in various loving manners. Unfortunately, polish takes me days-weeks ... via manual compression of such 'interdependent' and (ultimately) irreducible tracks. And going in circles ... over and over again ... is par for my neurosis.
post edited by Philip - 2012/06/26 02:03:57
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re:Gain staging and Volume...
2012/06/26 02:22:43
(permalink)
☄ Helpful
Out of interest I actually don't mess with buss levels much either. I just find I tend to tweak the channel faders to get the desired mix on a buss and most of the time the buss VU's are also just hitting 0 dB VU mark or a bit under which is about right. Even if I have got the perfect mix on a buss and the VU's might be hitting say +3 dB VU, then I might just put all those tracks into a group temporarily and pull them all down a tad to get the buss meters sitting back to 0dB VU again. But if you are sending say three or four buses to the masterbuss, in order to get the masterbuss just hitting 0dB VU then you do have to get the individual buses just falling short so that when they sum you end up with the right level on your masterbuss. So I tend to still leave the buss faders at unity but the VU's in reality are falling a little shy of 0dB VU in the end which is not a bad thing anyway. It just means that buss has got even more headroom now than it had before which is surely not a bad thing. I rarely alter the masterbuss fader, it just sits at unity. If a masterbuss starts pushing a VU hard eg up to +3dB or more then I just put all the busses into a temp group and just lower them down a little to get the masterbuss back to normal. I find when you track using VU's you have got this equal loudness thing happening on all your tracks and you end up with the channel faders also being in nice positions and about the same or close (depending on the mix of course) and you are never having to add or subtract huge amounts of gain on tracks anywhere in order to get the desired mix. As I have mentioned plugins can screw things around though so you need to be careful with your input and output settings. But with care you can also set all your plugs to not be clipping anywhere and still send out the right amount of rms level afterwards. I think most plugs prefer not to clip anywhere unless of course there are some that do need to be driven harder to get the desired effect. But that is OK too because all you have to do is lower the output level to get your ref level coming back out and driving the VU meter nicely. The VU plugin concept is also good because you can put them anywhere in the signal chain which can be very handy at times. They don't use any CPU resources either.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
Sonico
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 266
- Joined: 2003/11/25 12:53:58
- Status: offline
Re:Gain staging and Volume...
2012/06/26 11:31:20
(permalink)
Thanks Jeff!! Good to know the way you approach this, that's what I've been doing too. I have a Presonus Firestudio Project (that I love by the way) and their preamps reference level for 0 dBFS is +10dBu wich I understand gives me 10 dB's of headroom. What I do is track close to 0dB VU (-10dBFS) and since I started doing this, my mixes sound warmer and more open. Could it be that the preamps work closer to their sweetspot when not pushed close to 0dBFS (+10dBu)??
post edited by Sonico - 2012/06/26 11:32:24
Desktop: Intel Core i7 3.60Ghz, 16 GB Ram Windows 10 64bit Laptop: Intel i5 2.3Ghz, 6GB Ram Windows 10 64bit Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 Presonus Faderport My Music
|
trimph1
Max Output Level: -12 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6348
- Joined: 2010/09/07 19:20:06
- Location: London ON
- Status: offline
Re:Gain staging and Volume...
2012/06/27 07:43:29
(permalink)
Jeff Evans The only thing I find a bit weird now about the BlueCat meter is there is no actual serious marking at 0dB VU but rather a change in colour only. (the nearest marking is at either -2dB and +2 dB) I know it might be nit picking but I find it harder to read in some ways compared to the Klang meters which have a definite 0dB VU mark and it is nice and clear and obvious. But the BlueCat as Bristol says does a lot more as well and it is a nice meter too. I am little biased now toward the Klang meter because it visually looks like a real VU and can be set to behave like one too. uuummmm...now...just how does someone set this up to act like a VU meter?
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re:Gain staging and Volume...
2012/06/27 08:52:54
(permalink)
Hi there trimph1. The BlueCat meter does a great job of being a VU meter. It is very accurate and even the ballistics of the meter can be similar to a normal VU meter. But as you can see the display is more the horizontal bar graph type setup but it is perfectly workable and will do all the things I mentioned a VU meter should do. It is just down to what type of display one prefers. The Klang meters of course look like a normal VU meter and I also like that type of display. I use both at times actually. Also the BlueCat meter offers a lot more in terms of what it can do hence the extra expense.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|